150 octane fuel

[Guppy35]

No, special events is a perfectly fine reason not to model 150 octane fuel.


Why? We couldn't do any event pre D-day and have it be historically accurate. We couldn't do PTO events with the P-51 and have them be accurate.


K4? maybe, even if it would be both stupid and unpopular, but only because its about comparable to the already-perked spit 14. However, I think you know full well that perking has nothing what so ever to do with service dates.




No, its not a "oh poor luftwaffe" argument. I would just enjoy a fighting chance in a post D-day scenario. I mean, if the P-51 and spit 14 had 150 octane fuel modeled, about the only chance the axis would have is if about 1/2 of all points/objectives are GV based.

I mean, historically speaking, well over half the fight was fought on the ground. You want to historically represent 150 octane fuel, then theres no reason not to historically represent the fighting on the ground.

And this is where you don't get it.  A fighting chance in a post D-Day Scenario.  We're running one btw.  The LW has more fighters, and will get more sorties then the Allied fighters can manage by about half if not more since it's over their turf.   Anytime you run a 44-45 scenario that's the case.  The Luftwaffe always has a fighting chance and then some.  If anything the 150 octane would give the escorts a chance since they've got 1 chance to get it right.

150 octane didn't get used in the PTO so it's a non issue for the 51s.

And be clear, I am not advocating for 150 fuel.  But think for half a second before you drag special events into it and the Luftwaffe guys.  In fact point me to one scenario in the past 15 years where the Luftwaffe didn't have a fighting chance or point to one where 150 octane fuel would have made it that way.  You won't find one.

[Scherf]

I confess I no longer know quite what the argument is about, other than I don't want to see 150 in AH. I think the cogent argument is the one posted above re: wanting to know what it is the opponent is flying - P-51 or ueber monster P-51.

Great pics Guppy. I well remember that a (thankfully) former member of the board used the"Special Project" notation on the 100/150 craft to reach for his well-worn "that's what I was saying all along" catchphrase, emphasis this time on "it was just a special project", until it was pointed out to him that all the 51s, regardless of octane, had the "special project" notation.

For what it's worth, various bits and pieces re: German testing of captured Allied fuels, with special focus on 150.

The "'Mustang 130" sample is from an aircraft brought down on 9 August 1944, the 150 from a Mustang on 18 August. The Mosquito is a PR machine.

The Germans plotted mixture response curves for a variety of fuels (the B4 curve is from a previous report) and also for C3 vs 160 only. They also did tests for the "super-charge-ability" of 150 and C3.





There's a translation of the method used to calculate the "Oppauer Octane Number" (=OOZ on the graphs above) herr:
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Tom%20Reels/Linked/TOM%20248/TOM-248-0364-0370%20FD2866-46-Lt92.pdf

The original report is here, towards the end of the file:
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Tom%20Reels/Linked/TOM%20117%20Partial/TOM-117-1001-1090.pdf

For those that are interested, the allies also undertook testing of German fuels:
http://fischer-tropsch.org/Tom%20Reels/Linked/A5464/A5464-0638-0654%20Item%206A.pdf

[Tank-Ace]

And this is where you don't get it.  A fighting chance in a post D-Day Scenario.  We're running one btw.  The LW has more fighters, and will get more sorties then the Allied fighters can manage by about half if not more since it's over their turf.   Anytime you run a 44-45 scenario that's the case.  The Luftwaffe always has a fighting chance and then some.  If anything the 150 octane would give the escorts a chance since they've got 1 chance to get it right.

150 octane didn't get used in the PTO so it's a non issue for the 51s.

And be clear, I am not advocating for 150 fuel.  But think for half a second before you drag special events into it and the Luftwaffe guys.  In fact point me to one scenario in the past 15 years where the Luftwaffe didn't have a fighting chance or point to one where 150 octane fuel would have made it that way.  You won't find one.

If you change the P-51D (and maybe B, too, IDK) to be modeled with 150 octane fuel, you change how it preforms not just in the MA, but also in special events. And not just in post D-day late special events, but also pre d-day MW events, and PTO events as well.


If you add 150 octane fuel, its a permenant change, as its already been stated we can't change the flight model in the hanger.

[Guppy35]

You didn't answer the question.  But you continue to be concerned on how it would impact your planes of choice.  Why does the Axis have to have the performance edge for the Luftwaffe guys to consider things fair?

[Karnak]

You didn't answer the question.  But you continue to be concerned on how it would impact your planes of choice.  Why does the Axis have to have the performance edge for the Luftwaffe guys to consider things fair?

Well, Germans.  The Japanese seem to be stuck with their ~87 octane. 

[Tank-Ace]

You didn't answer the question.  But you continue to be concerned on how it would impact your planes of choice.  Why does the Axis have to have the performance edge for the Luftwaffe guys to consider things fair?

I continue to be concerned about how it would affect the playability of a scenario, you dimwit. 150 octane fuel pretty much gives the allies a win, unless the axis flys uncommonly well.

Reason I don't like vulching in special events isn't that it makes it harder to win. Its because it goes against the spirit of a scenario; a fair, structured fight with clearly outlined objectives between two sides. Same reason I oppose 150 octane fuel; goes against the 'fair' part in the 'fair and structured'


And at 30K, the 109K doesn't nessicarily have the edge on the P-51.

Its not about having the edge, nobody made it about that except you. What its about is having a decent chance, and a P-51 that can do 390 on the deck, and probably would see similar increases at altitude would not make for a fair fight.

How can the fight be fair if we can't get at the bombers? How can the fight be fair if we can't defend our own bombers?



And again, what about everything pre D-day, where the P-51 would be INcorrectly modeled for that time period? What about the PTO where the P-51 with 150 octane fuel would be entirely unrepresentative of the situation in that theater?



Besides having a performance edge, what reason is there to ask for 150 octane fuel? It doesn't represent the norm, and not having 150 octane fuel represented doesn't make the game any less realistic. Why do the Allies always have to have the preformance edge for the US/UK guys to consider things fair?




Guppy, get it through your skull. Its NOT about being out-preformed. Its about things being pretty much cut and dried as far as who wins. Its about 150 octane fuel being ENTIRELY unfair for any PTO scenario.




Would I be fine with a speperate P-51 modeled with 150 octane fuel for specifically for events where P-51's used 150 octane fuel? Sure, so long as it was perked in the MA. I wouldn't even mind seeing the P-47M be modled with 150 octane fuel, and made into a perk aircraft.

[Noir]

Would I be fine with a speperate P-51 modeled with 150 octane fuel for specifically for events where P-51's used 150 octane fuel? Sure, so long as it was perked in the MA. I wouldn't even mind seeing the P-47M be modled with 150 octane fuel, and made into a perk aircraft.

that's what we are asking from the start 

[titanic3]

If they do that, at least differentiate the icons so we know which Pony will run and which Pony will sprint. :rolleyes

[Guppy35]

I continue to be concerned about how it would affect the playability of a scenario, you dimwit. 150 octane fuel pretty much gives the allies a win, unless the axis flys uncommonly well.

Reason I don't like vulching in special events isn't that it makes it harder to win. Its because it goes against the spirit of a scenario; a fair, structured fight with clearly outlined objectives between two sides. Same reason I oppose 150 octane fuel; goes against the 'fair' part in the 'fair and structured'


And at 30K, the 109K doesn't nessicarily have the edge on the P-51.

Its not about having the edge, nobody made it about that except you. What its about is having a decent chance, and a P-51 that can do 390 on the deck, and probably would see similar increases at altitude would not make for a fair fight.

How can the fight be fair if we can't get at the bombers? How can the fight be fair if we can't defend our own bombers?



And again, what about everything pre D-day, where the P-51 would be INcorrectly modeled for that time period? What about the PTO where the P-51 with 150 octane fuel would be entirely unrepresentative of the situation in that theater?



Besides having a performance edge, what reason is there to ask for 150 octane fuel? It doesn't represent the norm, and not having 150 octane fuel represented doesn't make the game any less realistic. Why do the Allies always have to have the preformance edge for the US/UK guys to consider things fair?




Guppy, get it through your skull. Its NOT about being out-preformed. Its about things being pretty much cut and dried as far as who wins. Its about 150 octane fuel being ENTIRELY unfair for any PTO scenario.




Would I be fine with a speperate P-51 modeled with 150 octane fuel for specifically for events where P-51's used 150 octane fuel? Sure, so long as it was perked in the MA. I wouldn't even mind seeing the P-47M be modled with 150 octane fuel, and made into a perk aircraft.

Go back and read what I wrote.  They did not use 150 fuel in the PTO.  The primary Mustang well into July 1944 was the B/C.  

No one said anything about 150 fuel being the norm and I'm not asking for it.  Your argument smelled of Luftwhine and still does now.

[Noir]

If they do that, at least differentiate the icons so we know which Pony will run and which Pony will sprint. :rolleyes

yeah like "P51D+" for the high octane P51Ds. As a sidenote a P51D with higher engine power would be able to fly much aggressively, being less limited on the vertical.

[titanic3]

So we're all forced to fly 150oct planes if we want to catch a runner? It's already hard as it is in a K4 (190D is the only other fast Axis ride but it can't TnB at all) to catch the current Tempests and P51s, you want to make it even harder? I thought this game was about combat...not running around until 5 friendlies show up. Or..actually, nvm, I'll be in a 262 killing the runners and when they whine, I'll just laugh. +1 to 150oct. The game needs less combat.

[Lusche]

much ado about nothing 

[MiloMorai]

They did not use 150 fuel in the PTO.  

There was 115/145 used late in the war in the Pacific theater.

[Guppy35]

There was 115/145 used late in the war in the Pacific theater.

Right, but I was being specific to 150 

No one asking for 115/145 Milo so shhhhhh! 

[Guppy35]

So we're all forced to fly 150oct planes if we want to catch a runner? It's already hard as it is in a K4 (190D is the only other fast Axis ride but it can't TnB at all) to catch the current Tempests and P51s, you want to make it even harder? I thought this game was about combat...not running around until 5 friendlies show up. Or..actually, nvm, I'll be in a 262 killing the runners and when they whine, I'll just laugh. +1 to 150oct. The game needs less combat.

Where is it written that the Luftwaffe birds have to be better then the Allied birds?  All I'm seeing here is if we choose to fly LW birds we won't be fastest and that's not fair.  Interesting how that works.