Planes in LW vs. Respect

[SmokinLoon]

Don't you think it might be even more difficult were you flying a P-40C?

- oldman

It is without a doubt, let no one tell you differently.  There is no possible way for anyone to have the firepower, speed, climb, or turn ability (etc) in a P40x that would lend him the same capability as any of the F4U's to get done what he just said he likes to do (engage a horde).  Is it absolute?  No.  But the odds of *anyone* engaging in the MA's or a duel while in a P40C vs the typical LW fighters are strongly against them.  Having a P40C handicaps their ability in a major way.  If it wasn't the case then the numbers would be much more balanced across the board in terms of plane usage.  The F4U's can have outstanding boom-n-zoom abilities, are fast, retain E very well, have average or better firepower, and if by chance the P51, La7, or Dora gets on their six with equal E the F4U is one of the few planes that can run almost as fast and yet outmaneuver them at all speeds.   

The argument of "it is the pilot, not the plane" is an incomplete statement.   

I'm anxious to hear what mtnman has to say about the P40C vs F4Ux in the MA or in a duel. 

[caldera]

Everything the P-40 can do, the F4U can do better.

Why else would the current Late War kill tally look like this:

Kills In:  F4U-1A: 620   P-40C: 3


Players want a reasonable chance of success, so they choose planes that will give them that. 

Situations, pilot skill and flying style obviously help dictate the outcome of a sortie, but to say that some planes are not easier than others is silly.

If it weren't, why did the nations of WWII bother to keep upgrading their equipment?

[mtnman]

Don't you think it might be even more difficult were you flying a P-40C?

- oldman

Was that in question?

[mtnman]

It is without a doubt, let no one tell you differently.  There is no possible way for anyone to have the firepower, speed, climb, or turn ability (etc) in a P40x that would lend him the same capability as any of the F4U's to get done what he just said he likes to do (engage a horde).  Is it absolute?  No.  But the odds of *anyone* engaging in the MA's or a duel while in a P40C vs the typical LW fighters are strongly against them.  Having a P40C handicaps their ability in a major way.  If it wasn't the case then the numbers would be much more balanced across the board in terms of plane usage.  The F4U's can have outstanding boom-n-zoom abilities, are fast, retain E very well, have average or better firepower, and if by chance the P51, La7, or Dora gets on their six with equal E the F4U is one of the few planes that can run almost as fast and yet outmaneuver them at all speeds.   

The argument of "it is the pilot, not the plane" is an incomplete statement.   

Again, this wasn't in question (from what I've seen).

The question appeared to be about respect earned as it related to landing kills in different planes.
 

I'm anxious to hear what mtnman has to say about the P40C vs F4Ux in the MA or in a duel. 

There-in lies the error in your thinking... 

Do you assume that landing kills in the P40C means the pilot killed an F4U?  Or fought alone (i.e 1vs 1)?  Or did anything but linger on the outskirts of a fight to jump in and pick planes that were defenseless for one reason or another?

I would argue til the cows come home that I could fly a P40C and make/land kills easier than I can in an F4U-4, simply by flying in different areas, and/or under different circumstances than I fly an F4U-4.  I've done just that in a P40 (but I don't think I've ever flown the P40C?).

For example, I lone-wolf fight against the hordes in an F4U-4.  That's difficult. 

In a P40C I could fly with a squad protecting me, and only fight "safe" opponents.  I could gang, instead of fighting the gang.  That would be easy in comparison to lone-wolfing against a horde in my F4U-4.

Landing kills in my P40C, if you thought I deserved respect for being successful in the "difficult" plane, you'd be mistaken.  If you felt I didn't deserve respect for landing kills in my F4U-4 you'd be mistaken.

Heck, I've even easily beat multiple opponents in a P40, simply because they were very unskilled.  I landed their scalps, and was saluted. I've done that on multiple occasions.  If someone (anyone) thought it was a noteworthy accomplishment they were wrong.

You cannot accurately judge "respect" earned based on kills landed in plane type.

[Oldman731]

Was that in question?

The question was:

"On the other side of things though, which planes do you feel in the LW arena are the most difficult to get kills in?"

So...yes, that was in question. 

There's no doubt that a person can up a P-40C, hide in the weeds, avoid all contact with enemy planes, and then suddenly pounce on some crippled goon in the landing pattern and get a kill.  We see just this sort of thing all too often in the MA (except that usually it isn't a P-40C).  It's why I've never been impressed by seeing huge kill tallies in the MA; there's no way to tell whether they were acquired by vultching, picking, ganging, repeated rearming or some other, more difficult way.

The gist of the original question, and the discussion which followed, was whether, as between two people flying in essentially the same style, the guy who flys the less-capable plane deserves more respect than the guy who flys the more-capable plane, and which plane would be the most difficult to fly in the MA (I assume the OP meant the LW MA) under such circumstances.  I'm surprised that there's any dispute about the first part, and I've yet to notice much discussion about the second.

- oldman

[Debrody]

When im in a Spit16, i can successfully fight against 2-3 "average" spits - depending on how they double team or just jump on me.
When im in a G6, one spit16 is hard enough to kill.
Also, in the G6, i can effectively fight against 2-3 P40s, either they are double teaming or not.
And the P40 is nowhere near the P39...

This is the difference.
And "how" they fly, of course. Idc, you can fly anything, as long as youre not a hide-in-the-horde-then-pick-and-run type, you get respect.

[Rob52240]

When im in a Spit16, i can successfully fight against 2-3 "average" spits - depending on how they double team or just jump on me.
When im in a G6, one spit16 is hard enough to kill.
Also, in the G6, i can effectively fight against 2-3 P40s, either they are double teaming or not.
And the P40 is nowhere near the P39...

This is the difference.

I think that's why we were so generous with them when the russians needed airplanes.

[DangerousGame]

To answer the origanal question, the spit1 is pretty hard for me to land kills in, Someone already mentioned that you cant tell how anyone got there kills, I personal don't link landing multiple kills with respect, If someone I fell earned my respect lands multiple kills I will usually <S> them though   

[Ardy123]

its not what you fly, its how you fly... period.

[SmokinLoon]

its not what you fly, its how you fly... period.

You drank the kool-aid too?

If your plane can not out turn or out climb someone then getting your guns on them becomes very difficult.

If your plane can not out run someone then getting away from their guns become almost impossible (in the end game). 

If your guns are of weaker stature (think P40C, I-16 w/ .30 MG's, etc), then snap shots are much harder to be successful with.


The point many are trying to make is that it certainly does make a difference because if the plane simply can not perform to a certain level.  The counter argument seems to be that it doesn't matter if you're in a corvette or Volt: they both will get you from point A to point B.  That isn't the argument anyone is trying to make, but instead that getting to 130mph, taking corners at 90mph, etc etc, all favor the 'vette.  Makes no difference if the location is MA or DA, the ability to land kills in a P40C is far more challenging than in a Spit16/P51D/La7, etc, etc.  This "pilot is everything" bravado gets a bit comical at times.       

[Triton28]

Planes make a difference for sure.  I think they make a little bit more difference in this game than they would have in real life.  The ratio of plane/pilot skill is probably 60/40ish, imo.

The difference between the planes can, to some degree, be made up for with pilot skill/SA.  But, imho, there is no substitute for raw plane performance.  It makes the job of killing and landing (if that's your thing) much easier. 

[Delirium]

Anyone can make their own choice what to fly based on their own goals. Every airplane is an easy mode plane.

That is so incredibly laughable, I almost spit coffee over the monitor.

In a regular environment, the faster plane that can operate at the target altitude has a huge advantage. If that wasn't true, you'd see P51s/La7s/Temps/262s being shot down in droves by everything else in the plane set.

What I consider 'ability'is to fight your opponents fight and still win the engagement. For example, a good stick in a P51 will maneuver with aircraft with a lower wing loading and still win. Unfortunately, aside from just a few p51 flyers, they are a bunch of sack less wonders that will not engage unless they have every possible advantage (alt, speed, position, and numbers). Heck, there is an entire squadron of them in AH; I think they even go to the bathroom together!

This can apply to others flying other airframes too (a certain mission building F4U pilot comes to mind), but P51s are absolutely the worst offenders.

[Karnak]

My experience of encountering the P-40 indicates I am either marvelously and magically better than the guys in P-40s as compared to merely average against most or that the P-40 is markedly harder to use than the Mosquito.

I think the second of those is much more likely to be true.

[Ardy123]

You drank the kool-aid too?

Sure in a 1v1 situation, one plane will do better in a dog fight than another... But that doesn't garner any respect. What I respect is a pilot who is willing to scrap and do so even if the odds are not favorable. And for that I don't care what plane they are in, its more about impressing me with their skills as a pilot.

[Karnak]

Sure in a 1v1 situation, one plane will do better in a dog fight than another... But that doesn't garner any respect. What I respect is a pilot who is willing to scrap and do so even if the odds are not favorable. And for that I don't care what plane they are in, its more about impressing me with their skills as a pilot.

A Spitfire Mk XVI will do better in a multi-plane dogfight than a P-40C will because it is more able to place itself where it needs to be and to capitalize on that placement.  A multi-plane engagement does not erase the advantages of the better performing aircraft.  While more opportunities are created in a multi-plane fight, a better performing aircraft will have more opportunities created than a poorer performing aircraft.