Henschel 129

[Babalonian]

For events, I'd rather see the Hs 129 instead of a Ju-88P.


Why? The Ju-88P couldn't kill vehicles as effectively, would probably be about as bad, if not worse for performance, and you can't use it for a Kursk scenario.

I believe it could kill them much more effectively than a 20mm or 30mm armed Hs129B-1/2.

...variant with single Bordkanone series 75 mm (2.95 in), 50 mm (2 in), or twin 37 mm (1.46 in) calibre cannon...

As I mentioned above, "as effectively" is debateable, the 410 was equally and ultimatley slated as a failure when all was said and done.  It can be debated that the Hs129B-3 with the large cannon pods were also a failure:

In the field they proved deadly weapons, but with only 25 aircraft available they had no effect on the war effort.

Hard do be effective with 25... (but the Ju-88P can fall in this category too, with 40-ish P-1s and 32 P-4s being constructed and fielded in squadron strength to combat units (in addition to enough P-3s being supplied for a staffel).  In addition, for the 129 having 25% the crew members and 50% the weight empty/clean of a Ju88 - the 88 flew 60 mph faster and had an additional 1000 miles in range).



Wait a minute....  "proved deadly"^, yet:

The resulting system was able to knock out any tank in the world, but the added weight further hindered the already poor performance of the airplane. The Hs 129 B-3 version was a very poorly handling aircraft.

The He-111 would trump this arguement with the events card, no question. 

In events or the MA against tanks, I'd put my money on a Ju88P before a HS 129 B-3.

[bustr]

Who will be flying the Hs129 farther than the town or the spawn? Very few fly the IL2 or G2Bk Short Bus any farther. And it will become T34 76mm skeet shooting fodder anyway because the Mk101 AP round works on armor 300m and closer.

I'm starting to see three T34 cover each other when you try to gun them or rocket them. They do pretty good from commander mode skeet shooting those 76mm. I've watched alot of jabo drop too low and get 76mm nailed just befor their bomb cracks the T34. And a few nailed from commander mode befor they could get their bomb(s) away.

Guess busting up GV assults will cycle back to using lancasters to carpet bomb the M16, wirbels, osties and T34 so the IL2 and G2 don't get slaughtered. Then they can focus on the M4 and panzers. Sometimes this game can get pretty weird when Hitech changes one small thing in hopes of making something better for one group. It forces another group to get gamey just to win fights.

Carpet bombing LancB52's. Someone should add an Indochina looking map to make the spawn carpeting more realistic.

[Tank-Ace]

Hs 129 could carry the Bk 7,5 with armor-piercing.

The Ju-88P would be using HE I think, as it was used in the anti-shipping role.


I mean it would be little more than a German B-25H, albeit with more options.

[ARSNishi]

And once people realize that this thing flies like a brick...it turns into another hangar queen. Yes yes, people will still use it, although I'd rather have something that will be more useful. That doesn't mean late war über monster.

Re.2005
Ki-43
Ki-44
B-17F
Mossie Tsetse
P-61
He-111
Ju-188
Ki-84 Otsu
Wellington
J2M
D4Y2
Meteor (debatable)
Whirlwind

Most of these are not the top tier planes in the same category as the La-7, Spit16, 109K4, 190D, P51D, F4U4, and Tempest are in. If they were added, most would have ENY of 10 or higher. And what's more, they'll actually see some use in the MA because they are competent enough to kill other planes. The Hs129 would be killed the moment another plane looked at it. And really, when have you seen a GV battle without some sort of air cover around it? It happens, but too rare to matter.

But whatever, if HTC decides to add the Hs 129, no big deal. Just don't expect it to be the Il-2 with two engines.

I know of no other plane that Luftwaffe pilots were ordered to avoid combat with other than the Yak 3, yet we have virtually every other plane that was ordered to avoid combat with it???   Arguably the best fighter of World War 2 absent from a world war 2 flight sim???

Nishizwa

[Wmaker]

Primarily though it looks at a glance like it'll have limited range and be grossly underpowered

It's basically no more underpowered than Il-2 is. HS129's power loading is 3,57kg/hp compared to Il-2's 3,48kg/hp. Not a big difference.

In comparison, our 110C weighs just over 1k pounds more while empty and had DB engines that produced at least 1,085hp each, and a top speed of 348mph.

110 is a heavy fighter and Hs129 is a ground attack aircraft. It is much more sensible to compare Hs129 to the Il-2.

What can the Hs129 offer over the Ju87G , Hurri2D or Il-2?

Advantages the Hs129 would offer compared to the Il-2 for example:

- Two air cooled engines instead of single liquid cooled one.

- Centerline main weapon (MK103) with 100 rounds. No convergence issues, ie. nice for opening up against flaks from longer ranges. Better accuracy, less ammo wasted.

- 20mm cannons for dealing with softer targets such as LVTs, M18s, M3s and aircraft...no need to waste precious main gun ammo for those.

- Counter rotating props eliminate many of the slipping/nose swaying problems (which are caused by prop slipstream, p-factor, gyroscopic precession) of a single engined aircraft such as the Il-2 and make for a very good gun platform. Also it gives a better low speed aileron authority while power on compared to the Il-2.

[Megalodon]

Who will be flying the Hs129 farther than the town or the spawn? Very few fly the IL2 or G2Bk Short Bus any farther.

Personally: The JU87G2 "short bus" as you put it, should be enabled at GV bases if ya ask me. As should the HS129 and the Boomer if we ever get them.

1. It's made to kill tanks.
2. It has 12 shots.
3. It was used at "Advanced Fields" as "Close support Aircraft" at "Close Support Bases" to the battle front.
4. Who is gonna fly it a sector or more? No one, its not for that, its for shooting GV's!.
5. It makes a great case for a re-arm at GV bases.
6. GV's don't drive all the way to another base! ...they spawn.

AND  should have the short icon range as GV's do.

It's an "AERIAL GV" ........
I like "Air Camping" in it ....
I don't have to fly far to do so ......
And its a blast
I just wish there were more opportunities to do so .....on a off note I have been flying the YakT lately and I might even try a um ahhh the HurricaneD

Like the smileys?,




I think the Hs-129 would be another fantastic addition to the game. It is literally a "Flying Tank". The only plane specifically designed to hunt tanks.


Of course...as always... behind the new country additions,  the Boomer and the D520

[Babalonian]

Hs 129 could carry the Bk 7,5 with armor-piercing.

The Ju-88P would be using HE I think, as it was used in the anti-shipping role.


I mean it would be little more than a German B-25H, albeit with more options.

I wouldn't negate the 88P for its job of primarily anti-shipping.  The 129 was also negated to "alternative" roles other than what it was primarily designed for, including anti shipping.

The Hs 129 I can find being operated by Schlachtgeschwader 1 predominatley, and it did not think highly of their 129s compared to their favored 109 fighter-bomber varients.  The 5th staffel (5/SchlG1 & 6/SchlG1 were the staffels equiped with 129Bs) served in Crimea with the rest of the SchlG 1, then transfered (interesting to me, the ONLY one from SG1 too) to Tunis with 129s (after Tunis they were reformed into SchlG2, a stuka tank busting unit that at the same time as their transfer began reequiping with 190s - a task that was never fully complete before May '45).  While primarily tasked with supporting ground units, they played roles in anti-shipping responcibilities with sorties flown over the northern Black Sea (and Mediteranian ala 5/SchlG1).

The 88P was produced in more numbers and served in more units and in greater numbers than the 129.  If you're wagering on total number of sorties, tank killing missions, targets destroyed and other statistics with the Ju88P vs Hs129B - the Ju88P will sink the Hs129B in the numbers.  As far as I can tell, they even TRIED more missions with the 88P than they even dared consider with the Hs129 - as ineffective (or desperate) the mission concepts were with the aircraft.  If that still isn't enough, the Hs129 undoubtedly recieved its big guns, as a slightly modified adaptation, FROM a weapons development program focused around the 88P.

Im not trying to drown out your wish for the 129, just pushing for the practicality of another.  The only speific neigh vote that I have against your wish with the Hs 129 is that it will be one of the most underpowered aircraft to grace the AH arenas, before you even strap on a capable weapon and overload it...

It's basically no more underpowered than Il-2 is. HS129's power loading is 3,57kg/hp compared to Il-2's 3,48kg/hp. Not a big difference.


110 is a heavy fighter and Hs129 is a ground attack aircraft. It is much more sensible to compare Hs129 to the Il-2.


Advantages the Hs129 would offer compared to the Il-2 for example:

- Two air cooled engines instead of single liquid cooled one.

- Centerline main weapon (MK103) with 100 rounds. No convergence issues, ie. nice for opening up against flaks from longer ranges. Better accuracy, less ammo wasted.

- 20mm cannons for dealing with softer targets such as LVTs, M18s, M3s and aircraft...no need to waste precious main gun ammo for those.

- Counter rotating props eliminate many of the slipping/nose swaying problems (which are caused by prop slipstream, p-factor, gyroscopic precession) of a single engined aircraft such as the Il-2 and make for a very good gun platform. Also it gives a better low speed aileron authority while power on compared to the Il-2.

Are your powerloading calculations from their lightest armament/clean loadouts for each aircraft?  

I would love to crunch some Hs 129 numbers if I had the data on the B-1, B-2 and B-3 each.

I'm not trying to kill the idea, just scratching my head over why (and now)?

[Megalodon]

I wouldn't negate the 88P for its job of primarily anti-shipping.  The 129 was also negated to "alternative" roles other than what it was primarily designed for, including anti shipping.



The 88P was produced in more numbers and served in more units and in greater numbers than the 129.  If you're wagering on total number of sorties, tank killing missions, targets destroyed and other statistics with the Ju88P vs Hs129B - the Ju88P will sink the Hs129B in the numbers.  As far as I can tell, they even TRIED more missions with the 88P than they even dared consider with the Hs129 - as ineffective (or desperate) the mission concepts were with the aircraft.  If that still isn't enough, the Hs129 undoubtedly recieved its big guns, as a slightly modified adaptation, FROM a weapons development program focused around the 88P.

BS

The Ju-88P was produced in 4 variants 32 or 33 total units made! All were Conversions!

-1    BK 7.5 cannon...........6 made tested not a produced series sent to Poltava airfield in southern Russia for operational trials.
-2   2  37mm Flak 18 ....delivered to Erprobungskommando 25
-3   2  37mm .......Up armored and Up engined and used as a night attack aircraft.
-4   BK 5 cannon 10 units of  90 ordered

"Just as Ju87s were converted to tank-busters, so a number of Ju88s were to, to form the Ju88P series. In 1942, a Ju88A-4 airframe formed the basis of a prototype and was tested with a 75mm (2.95in) KwK39 cannon mounted in a larger underbelly fairing. A small number were ordered as the Ju88P-1, armed with a 75mm (2.95in) Pak40 cannon and a 7.92mm (0.31in) MG81 forward-firing machinegun for the pilot to aim the cannon. The usual ventral and dorsal machine-guns were carried as well. Other sub-variants with alternative armament were built, including the Ju88P-2 and P-3 (two 37mm BK cannon) and the Ju88P-4 (one 50mm BK5 cannon), with a total of thirty-two of this final P variant being built.

Severe problems during the design and test resulted from the canons, which cause structural cracks in the front nose and the propellers. Therefore the smaller BK3,7 canons were mounted, which were already used at the Ju87-G. Due to the structural additions the P1/P2 became to slow, therefore the stronger Jumo 211J was added to the P3, which finally was delivered to the front troops for test flights. Some of these aircraft were also transferred to fighter units at the West front. But due to the heavy canons these aircraft offered bad flight performances. The tank busting Ju 88P was developed from the Ju 88A-4, the Ju 88P-1 with a 75 mm Pak 40 cannon and the ensuing Ju 88P-2 to Ju 88P-4 with different combinations of heavy anti-tank weapons"



The Ju88 is just another bomber adaptation trying to be a tank buster.
Might as well have this for another ju88 something to spend perks on



Go make your own wish  

[Tank-Ace]

I wouldn't negate the 88P for its job of primarily anti-shipping.  The 129 was also negated to "alternative" roles other than what it was primarily designed for, including anti shipping.

The Hs 129 I can find being operated by Schlachtgeschwader 1 predominatley, and it did not think highly of their 129s compared to their favored 109 fighter-bomber varients.  The 5th staffel (5/SchlG1 & 6/SchlG1 were the staffels equiped with 129Bs) served in Crimea with the rest of the SchlG 1, then transfered (interesting to me, the ONLY one from SG1 too) to Tunis with 129s (after Tunis they were reformed into SchlG2, a stuka tank busting unit that at the same time as their transfer began reequiping with 190s - a task that was never fully complete before May '45).  While primarily tasked with supporting ground units, they played roles in anti-shipping responcibilities with sorties flown over the northern Black Sea (and Mediteranian ala 5/SchlG1).

The 88P was produced in more numbers and served in more units and in greater numbers than the 129.  If you're wagering on total number of sorties, tank killing missions, targets destroyed and other statistics with the Ju88P vs Hs129B - the Ju88P will sink the Hs129B in the numbers.  As far as I can tell, they even TRIED more missions with the 88P than they even dared consider with the Hs129 - as ineffective (or desperate) the mission concepts were with the aircraft.  If that still isn't enough, the Hs129 undoubtedly recieved its big guns, as a slightly modified adaptation, FROM a weapons development program focused around the 88P.

Im not trying to drown out your wish for the 129, just pushing for the practicality of another.  The only speific neigh vote that I have against your wish with the Hs 129 is that it will be one of the most underpowered aircraft to grace the AH arenas, before you even strap on a capable weapon and overload it...

Are your powerloading calculations from their lightest armament/clean loadouts for each aircraft? 

I would love to crunch some Hs 129 numbers if I had the data on the B-1, B-2 and B-3 each.

I'm not trying to kill the idea, just scratching my head over why (and now)?

All I have to say to that is that we don't use our aircraft in ways that are nessicarily conventional, or tacticaly sound in real life, but result in improved effectivness in the game.


The 190F-8 was intended to be a ground-support aircraft, but in AH it makes one hell of a CV buster. If it had more of its ordnance options, particularly the AP 500kg and 1000kg bombs, it would probably be the best CV buster in the game.

Mossie 16 was a bomber, but it makes a great ground-attack plane if you're willing to risk the perks.

Tigers were assult tanks, but here they're just concrete sitters.

Late up-armored 190's were poor at alt. But in AH, they can still be effective due to lower combat altitudes.

[Babalonian]

Over 40 Ju88A-4s were converte into P-1s, and 30-odd A4s were converted into P-4s.  The total number is lost to history likely, unless you'd like to share your resources Magalodon.  The definitive number produced alone is over the total for Hs 129Bs.  I'm pulling the BS card.

[Megalodon]

Over 40 Ju88A-4s were converte into P-1s, and 30-odd A4s were converted into P-4s.  The total number is lost to history likely, unless you'd like to share your resources Magalodon.  The definitive number produced alone is over the total for Hs 129Bs.  I'm pulling the BS card.

Well Bibalonian

1st of all they were ordered not completed...... and there were 90 -4's ordered and 10 made.



I have already shared 1 of my resources


Thanks for playing 

BTW you should try a few books instead of the wiki

[Megalodon]

[Denniss]

German wikipedia has Data from the military archive in Freiburg regarding Ju 88P
P-1: 20+18 rebuilt from A-4
P-4: 25 rebuilt from A-4

By march 1944 10 P-4 were delivered, P-1 series was obviously completed earlier
http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/RLM/RLMMar44.html

[bustr]

It would be a superlative M3 Hunter and wirble disabler.

[Wmaker]

Are your powerloading calculations from their lightest armament/clean loadouts for each aircraft?  

The weight data is from AH (il-2 with 37mms/100% fuel) and Martin Pegg's excellent book (Hs129B-3 take of weight (MK103 cannon).