bomber formations

[Wiley]

You're not wrong, but you're not right and you haven't read the whole post.

All I've seen is anything that breaks your idea should be 'changed somehow'.  Not exactly a rock solid refutation.

Wiley.

[muzik]

All I've seen is anything that breaks your idea should be 'changed somehow'.  Not exactly a rock solid refutation.

Wiley.

Let me repeat myself, you haven't read the whole post. That's why its "all you've seen."

I've agreed to every reasonable concession others have suggested. So far in those that have disagreed with the idea, Gyrene is the only rational one. I have agreed that perks are the most likely starting place.

Arlo says large formations would overload the system. I conceded that MAYBE they could start out with only 5 large formations being allowed in flight at any one time. Hardly a system overload.

Bomb drop dispersal sounds to be a needed change in the modeling anyway. If porking bases is a problem, 24 bombers in formation wouldn't be able to laser sight buildings with proper dispersal.

So what else did you miss?

[Wiley]

Arlo says large formations would overload the system. I conceded that MAYBE they could start out with only 5 large formations being allowed in flight at any one time. Hardly a system overload.

So what's to prevent griefers from upping them at a rear base and leaving them sit on the runway to take them out of play?

Bomb drop dispersal sounds to be a needed change in the modeling anyway. If porking bases is a problem, 24 bombers in formation wouldn't be able to laser sight buildings with proper dispersal.

What if they come in at 2-5k?  Only a dedicated defense is going to be able to stop 24 buffs  There's going to be a pattern to the drop, any way you cut it.  There will be an angle and timing to one-shot the major targets at a base.

That problem only gets worse if you've got a couple guys working together with a couple of these giant formations.  You're giving 2 guys the power to insta-level a base.

Wiley.

[gyrene81]

What if they come in at 2-5k?  Only a dedicated defense is going to be able to stop 24 buffs  There's going to be a pattern to the drop, any way you cut it.  There will be an angle and timing to one-shot the major targets at a base.

That problem only gets worse if you've got a couple guys working together with a couple of these giant formations.  You're giving 2 guys the power to insta-level a base.

Wiley.

i don't know Wiley. if the bomb formations were setup the way they would have been in real life, with a change to the bomb drop dispersal that matches the position of each plane independently, and all planes dropping at the same time, it would still be difficult to level a base in 1 pass...unless they're using b-29s. they could definitely do some serious damage, especially on v bases, ports and small bases, de-acking would be the biggest effect. if they were allowed to set salvo, they could get a little more precise but, it wouldn't be the precise devastation that can be accomplished with a coordinated effort of 4 sets of lancs now.

keep in mind that if perks were used to control the usage, in a tiered cost system where each additional set of bombers costs more and more, it wouldn't take long before everyone burns through their perk points and leave just a small percentage with enough points to keep using them at will. granted it would be havoc in the arena until all the points were used up.

[earl1937]

interesting...looks like there is some glitching going on with the new wingman setting.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,350459.0.html

sounds as if maybe the command is trying to force a speed setting as well as alt...that could explain the jitters people are experiencing. i have to wonder how it would work if everyone set their manifold pressure and rpms the same.

i need to find someone to wing with in heavy bombers and do some experimenting... 

Dhawk and I ran some tests yesterday and we didn't have a lot of time to play with it, but one of the first things we ran into, was making turns at any bank angle, the wingman's aircraft did a lot of jerky around, control yoke jerking around constanly and we never did do a successful 90 degree change in direction. Someone pointed out that AH was working the bugs out, but as far as straight and level, no problem. We were using B-17's.

[Zacherof]

The only thing I said about in game perforance is I know HOW to attack bombers. I'm far from the best pilot in fact.

Now how accurate would this AI be? We talking the same as field ack?

Maybe the joining system cod be changed that each section could potentially have a gunner

[Wiley]

i don't know Wiley. if the bomb formations were setup the way they would have been in real life, with a change to the bomb drop dispersal that matches the position of each plane independently, and all planes dropping at the same time, it would still be difficult to level a base in 1 pass...unless they're using b-29s. they could definitely do some serious damage, especially on v bases, ports and small bases, de-acking would be the biggest effect. if they were allowed to set salvo, they could get a little more precise but, it wouldn't be the precise devastation that can be accomplished with a coordinated effort of 4 sets of lancs now.

B29's probably are off the table as I can't imagine too many people having the perks to do it especially after the first while.  An armada of Lancs should probably be considered the far more common 'worst case' scenario.  Still, how often in an evening do you see 4 sets of buffs working in coordination versus a couple sets of bombers?  In my experience it's far more common to see two than four.

keep in mind that if perks were used to control the usage, in a tiered cost system where each additional set of bombers costs more and more, it wouldn't take long before everyone burns through their perk points and leave just a small percentage with enough points to keep using them at will. granted it would be havoc in the arena until all the points were used up.

With the added dispersal, would it not make bombing at reasonable altitudes far more ineffective, to the point of not being worth it, particularly with the smaller formations?

Wiley.

[Arlo]

Apples and oranges. And the word is "COULD" not "would".

You don't know what htc might find when experimenting with this. You don't know what steps they might take to avoid overload. You haven't considered any other game changes that might make this a controlled and measured activity.

So it's safe to say, your only concern is object overload.  Point taken and addressed. <?

You don't know what htc might find when experimenting with this.

[Arlo]

So far in those that have disagreed with the idea, Gyrene is the only rational one.

You're not very good at drumming up support. 

[Zacherof]

Just wondering, would TBM's and And Kates have this attribute if they took off from a land base?

Or we talking just heavy and medium bombers

[gyrene81]

With the added dispersal, would it not make bombing at reasonable altitudes far more ineffective, to the point of not being worth it, particularly with the smaller formations?

Wiley.

we kinda covered some of that in the discussion of the strat/city complex (scoring, downtimes, etc...) a change to the bomb dispersal would actually work out better on the strats giving the bombers a wider path of destruction and i personally think it would make smaller sized bombs more valuable in that area. on the flip side, it could potentially require heavier ords to be effective on bases and possibly more 3 plane formations to do what can be done with 3 bombers now. depends on the actual dispersal distance, altitude at drop time, and how much damage is calculated based on bomb damage radius.

i guess i'll have to jump into some bombers this evening (instead of cleaning my apartment  ) and see if i can get a better idea of how things would work out with a change in the dispersal from different alts.

[Wiley]

we kinda covered some of that in the discussion of the strat/city complex (scoring, downtimes, etc...) a change to the bomb dispersal would actually work out better on the strats giving the bombers a wider path of destruction and i personally think it would make smaller sized bombs more valuable in that area. on the flip side, it could potentially require heavier ords to be effective on bases and possibly more 3 plane formations to do what can be done with 3 bombers now. depends on the actual dispersal distance, altitude at drop time, and how much damage is calculated based on bomb damage radius.

Just looking at the wind complaints, I'm not sure how much more effectiveness reduction buff pilots can take.  If their only option to remain as effective as now is to spend perks, I don't see that being a particularly popular change.

i guess i'll have to jump into some bombers this evening (instead of cleaning my apartment  ) and see if i can get a better idea of how things would work out with a change in the dispersal from different alts.

I suppose if each drone had a randomized delay it would become pretty uncertain.  Okay... so what happens if the buffs come in at 3000 feet, at 100mph?  Now the random delay has much less effect on bomb placement.  You're going to be able to be a lot more precise than if you're at cruising speed.

Wiley.

[gyrene81]

Just looking at the wind complaints, I'm not sure how much more effectiveness reduction buff pilots can take.  If their only option to remain as effective as now is to spend perks, I don't see that being a particularly popular change.

ya that wind complaint kinda puzzles me. i've yet to run into an issue.

I suppose if each drone had a randomized delay it would become pretty uncertain.  Okay... so what happens if the buffs come in at 3000 feet, at 100mph?  Now the random delay has much less effect on bomb placement.  You're going to be able to be a lot more precise than if you're at cruising speed.

Wiley.

at anything below max speed they're cannon fodder. if someone tried to come in at 3000ft flying 150mph they're toast just from the base auto ack. if the base dar isn't down, as soon as they cross into the circle, a p40e has time to get off the field and get above them before they can hit the base.

[muzik]

So what's to prevent griefers from upping them at a rear base and leaving them sit on the runway to take them out of play?

That is the same as hiding carriers. If htc wanted to stop this behavior, they could. Just off the top of my head, 10 minutes of inactivity while sitting on the ground results in loss of the formation.

What if they come in at 2-5k?  

Something else you missed. No bomb drops. Below 10k AGL bombs don't release. Which should be the case for all heavy bombers regardless of large formations.

There will be an angle and timing to one-shot the major targets at a base.

You don't know that yet and it all depends on how committed htc would be to making it work.

I can come up with counters to anything you bring up. Getting rid of ".salvo 1" for heavy bombers is just one way to put an end to that. And other game changes were already discussed to prevent this, but you didn't see them.

That problem only gets worse if you've got a couple guys working together with a couple of these giant formations.  You're giving 2 guys the power to insta-level a base.

As opposed to giving 1 or 2 fighters the power to ruin bombing in the game.  Good point there.

In my experience it's far more common to see two than four.

Exactly the point I made to negate Arlo's concern.

With the added dispersal, would it not make bombing at reasonable altitudes far more ineffective, to the point of not being worth it, particularly with the smaller formations?

That is a benefit, not a detriment. The accuracy of bombers is too gamey as it is.  Bomber pilots would have to get used to a different performance standard. But your worry was that they would flatten a base. Taking away the laser accuracy works against being able to "one shot" base structures.

If you read the whole post you would see that my suggestion was made with major changes of the game in mind for the future.  which included taking the focus off blowing up buildings as a function of taking bases.

I have no wish to throw this feature in the game to wreak havoc on game play, but it could be done right now with the right balances in place. Later on with other changes this idea could be even more viable.

[Arlo]

Something else you missed. No bomb drops. Below 10k AGL bombs don't release. Which should be the case for all heavy bombers regardless of large formations.