Bf-109F Ordinance

[Lusche]

In December 1941, Reich Marshall Goring himself was flying F-2s. Notably modified with more guns, but F-2s (NOT F-4s).

You should watch less Anime 

[morfiend]

 I was doing some reading on the F4,it appears that I./JG52,1./JG3 and III./JG3 all were given F4's with gondies F4/R1 was the designation. In the early summer of 42 JG77 received a batch of F4/R1's but the gondies were removed.

 Both the F4/b and F4/R1's saw service and were built in numbers,I see no reason to not have them implemented ingame,especially now that CM's can limit to loadouts.



   

[Denniss]

There's no F-4/B or F-4/b designation as all Fs were able to carry bombs. This designation was dropped from the E-7 on.

[gyrene81]

There's no F-4/B or F-4/b designation as all Fs were able to carry bombs. This designation was dropped from the E-7 on.

you might want to pass that information on to oberleutnant frank liesendahl staffelkapitan 10./jg2 richtofen...it was the jabo designation for the -f4s equipped with a centerline bomb rack for a 250kg bomb.

[Krusty]

Yes, you're right. Galland, not Goring. Brain fart on that one, my bad!

Technically there may have been a /b designation but it wasn't important. The only thing needed was the bomb rack, which was widely available.

As for the R1 gondolas, the planes capable of even MOUNTING gondolas had to have the R1 factory modification installed. Very few of them had it. Further, those that DID mostly went through their service lives without ever mounting them. Those actual F-4 models that carried gondolas were as rare as golden geese.


P.S. Lusche, I don't understand the anime reference... 

[gyrene81]

P.S. Lusche, I don't understand the anime reference... 

i could be wrong but i think he's referring to - "all your base are belong to us!!!"

[morfiend]

Yes, you're right. Galland, not Goring. Brain fart on that one, my bad!

Technically there may have been a /b designation but it wasn't important. The only thing needed was the bomb rack, which was widely available.

As for the R1 gondolas, the planes capable of even MOUNTING gondolas had to have the R1 factory modification installed. Very few of them had it. Further, those that DID mostly went through their service lives without ever mounting them. Those actual F-4 models that carried gondolas were as rare as golden geese.


P.S. Lusche, I don't understand the anime reference... 

  Krusty,


  240 work numbers are attributed to the R1 "kit" out of 1841 total builds is not what I'd consider rare as a golden egg! that 15% of production that was tested on a previous mark the F2.

   In the Prien book there at plenty of photos,and if 3 stab. and 1 gruppen don't count as being fielded then I don't know what does.

  I can understand the removal before the CM's had the ability to limit loadouts but I see no reason not to have them now that the CM's can limit them. In the mains it would maybe make the 109F used more often.

  On a side note I could be requesting the GM1 kit for the F4,but that I do know was quite rare!


   

[Karnak]

morfiend,

You misread him a bit.  He wasn't saying the Bf109F-4/R1s were that rare, he was saying that Bf109F-4/R1s almost never used the gondolas and hence, R1s already being a heavy minority, Bf109F-4s actually using gondolas were extremely rare.

I cannot speak to the accuracy of his claim though.

[morfiend]

morfiend,

You misread him a bit.  He wasn't saying the Bf109F-4/R1s were that rare, he was saying that Bf109F-4/R1s almost never used the gondolas and hence, R1s already being a heavy minority, Bf109F-4s actually using gondolas were extremely rare.

I cannot speak to the accuracy of his claim though.

  I guess you could be correct,I don't have the imformation on the sories flown with or without them. I can only rely on Prien"s numbers of those built and who got them.

   I also understand they weren't liked much by the pilots and I suspect many had them removed if they had a say. However this is neither here nor there,we do many things in Aces High that weren't done in RL,HTC just offers the tools that were available and I think since the gondies were "available" lets leave it to the pilots to decide whether to take them or not.


   

[Perrine]

Source?

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beim-zeugmeister.de%2Fzeugmeister%2Findex.php%3Fid%3D38

F-4s were introduced early in 1942. F-4s were as early as February 1942 cleared for 1.42 per the flight book.

Prien and Rodeike (1995, pp. 23–24) says first F-4s r4eached frontline service in June '41

[Krusty]

Morfiend, Karnak was correct in reading what I said.

Perrine, I think that's completely wrong compared to everything else I've read. In June 1941, they were only just barely getting E-7s to North Africa. E-4s were the frontline fighter of the time. It wasn't until September 1941 that early model 109Fs started reaching North Africa. F-1s and F-2s.

At near enough the same time, they were stockpiling Bf109Fs (F does not mean F-4, it means F-1 and F-2s) for Barbarossa, even though they didn't have enough and over 1/3 of the frontline fighters at the time were Emils still.

JG2, the very FIRST recipients of the Bf109F-1 only received theirs in March and April 1941.


Just because it says "109F" doesn't mean it's an F-4. F-4s started appearing in service at the beginning of 1942.

[MiloMorai]

So Krusty from the same page it states the first F-4, WNr 7020, lost was on July 1 1941 from 8./JG52 (Oblt Lossnitz)

How can a F-4 be lost in 1941 if as you say they weren't introduced til 1942?

[Krusty]

From the same page? The same page that says they were around in June 1941? Yeah... same error. Same authors making the same mistake.

The F-1 was still being rushed out in June 1941. They were still discovering the teething problems with the plane at the time. No way was the F-4 seeing combat at the time. Look at the introduction dates for the F-1, F-2, and the F-3. Ask yourself why Galland was flying F-2s in December 1941 if F-4s were available for 6 months (according to your book). Ask yourself why the F-3, which had a short run BEFORE the F-4, was only introduced to combat units around January 1942.

I've quoted books with mistakes in dates before. I've been corrected before. It happens. Mistakes in books happen quite a lot. This is one of those mistakes.

[MiloMorai]

F-4
WNF: 1046  built between 5.41 and 12.41
Erla: 795 built between 6.41 and 8.41
Erla: 219 built between 8.41 and 12.41
Total: 2060

F-1 production from 8.40 to 2.41
F-2 production from 2.41 to 8-41 > 1334 a/c

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se28641.htm
28.5.41
E - 439
F-1/2 - 669
F-4 - 74
F - 23

So Krusty, why is there 74 F-4s, with the units they were assigned to?

Do I smell a pwn?

[R 105]

Edit: Going back to this supposed Bf109F power conspiracy.....

F-1s were only being delivered to JG2 in April of 1941.

In September of 1941 JG27 in Africa was being re-equipped with F-1s and F-2s.

In the fall of 1941 on the Russian front, noted ace Werner Molders was flying a F-2.

In December 1941, Reich Marshall Goring himself was flying F-2s. Notably modified with more guns, but F-2s (NOT F-4s).

A small number of F-3s were in use early in 1942 scattered amongst units.

F-4s were introduced early in 1942. F-4s were as early as February 1942 cleared for 1.42 per the flight book. That's pretty damn near since the start of their service. By May 1942 they were already working on the Bf109G-1 model, so throughout its 6 months of intense action it was always using that power setting. Some hand-me-down units on the Russian Front were given war-weary models for jabo use and ran them at reduced power, but this is also true of their jabo 109Es. They were not used as front-line fighters.


The SpitV we have is a second-half-of-1941 spit. The one with +16 was a late 1943 model and totally inappropriate. The fact of the matter is that the same spit was in use when the Bf109F-4 arrived to engage it. The F-2 was there for some months before the F-4, but let there be no doubt this constant conspiracy theory has been put to rest. We have the best appropriately matched 109F-4 and SpitVb we can have.

The F-2 would round it out better, as would the E-7 (which was struggling against SpitVs for a short while until the F-1s/F-2s could help ease the pain). By no means do we have a complete planeset, but we do have a damn good matchup with our F-4 and Vb pairing. Those that disagree haven't flown both sides of it against their historical rivals. It's quite a balanced fight.



EDIT2: Footnote on the power setting... comment from kurfurst.org:

"This clearance is in fact also supported by the February 1942 release of the Bf 109F Flugzeughandbuch, which no longer notes any limitation in regards to the DB 601 E. The new Hanbuch part 7 (Powerplant) was likely to have been re-issued because of this clearance.
See D.(Luft) T. 2109F-1 bis F-4, 'Bf 109F-1 bis F-4 Flugzeug-Handbuch', Teil 6 'Triebwerksanlage', page 7., authorized in Berlin, 24 February 1942."

I would have liked to see Herman Goring get into an ME109 with his 300 pounds. I have sat in an 109 and at the time I weighed about 150 pounds and it was a tight fit for  me.