Bring on the Hos

[dedalos]

OK.  I give up.  Since it's impossible to detail every possible HO merge scenario in a single thread it must be impossible to beat the HO, therefor I shall stop doing so and HO everyone I see.  Thank you for clarifying.

What ever you do, do not admit you are wrong    Just detail the best case scenario.  If the HO is done wrong you will win, no one is arguing that.  If done right, it gives a small advantage to the HOer.  You may still beat him since you can make up for that advantage with skill and experience.  Avoid it the way you described against a skilled player and you are in a major disadvantage.

My point has been that just because someone pulls the trigger it does not make him an easy.  Not always easy to avoid.  It does not take two.  It is the dumbest move you could pull unless you are facing certain death.  And don't confuse your ability to win a fight with the fact that someone pulled the trigger HO.

[dedalos]

Completely and wholeheartedly agreed.  The only thing I think the guy coming in could do worse from that position would be to not take the shot.

Very true.  And we should be teaching new guys not to put them selves in that situation by telling them that it is a valid tactic, blame the other guys SA, etc.  It should be a last resort act.

All my point has ever been in this thread is that if you're not in a situation that already has put you behind the 8 ball, the HO is easy to avoid.  If you're in a spot where it's not, you've got far bigger problems than the faceshooting.

I see it as enjoin a fight.  Someone coming in for a 50/50 3 second shot is just annoying and adds nothing to the game experience.  Ends the fight and takes the kill away from someone that put some effort in it.

Regardless of your two planes' relative orientation, if you're in his gunsight you've messed up in some fashion.  The idea that just because you're head on he shouldn't take the shot is just silly.

By all means, if you get there take the shot.  Just don;t try to get there.  Don;t make your opening move a 50/50 chance especially when you have the advantage of the bad guy being bz with someone else.

The tricky part with testing for how much of an edge it gives the other guy avoiding the HO is, there are so many variables in a fight, it's really rare and difficult to find two guys that are exactly equally matched on any given day.  If I were able to clone myself and fight myself on a good day when the clone was having an off day, the clone would never win a fight.  Same thing with two different guys who are supposedly 'evenly matched'.

Titan and I were somewhat back and forth in our duels, but I don't think the HO had a whole lot to do with who won.  He's somewhat better than I am in a 1v1, I'd say.

Wiley.

True, and it may be different with different people testing.  What we saw was a small position advantage.  Would it be bigger if it was against a less skilled player? I think so.  I also draw from my experience.  I can get pretty good position when I am in a 110 by just pointing the plane towards people.  They jump put of the way at 1K out and I can just follow them.  Did they avoid a potential HO shot?  yes.  Am I on their six?  yep

[Zacherof]

I do the same thing Nd they wine about how I out turned thier spits and 51s

[BaldEagl]

What ever you do, do not admit you are wrong    Just detail the best case scenario.  If the HO is done wrong you will win, no one is arguing that.  If done right, it gives a small advantage to the HOer.  You may still beat him since you can make up for that advantage with skill and experience.  Avoid it the way you described against a skilled player and you are in a major disadvantage.

My point has been that just because someone pulls the trigger it does not make him an easy.  Not always easy to avoid.  It does not take two.  It is the dumbest move you could pull unless you are facing certain death.  And don't confuse your ability to win a fight with the fact that someone pulled the trigger HO.

You are absolutely correct and I was totally wrong.  It is impossible to avoid the HO therefore I shall no longer try but simply fly forward guns on.

Was that more to your liking? 

[dedalos]

You are absolutely correct and I was totally wrong.  It is impossible to avoid the HO therefore I shall no longer try but simply fly forward guns on.

Was that more to your liking? 

    

[RotBaron]

After being the recipient of many a HO, like all of us, and not in the good way, that there is a tactical Energy related way to exploit and gain advantage from HO'ing. Wiley and Titan, from your experiments, it would seem that if one is able to get the surprise on the poor guy to be HO'd, say 1.5k or less then said poor guy will have to react violently thus causing major losses in Energy state, positioning and probably SA too. At least that is what I have gathered, as it seems there are some that can HO at you and still win the reversal and onto your 6. 

[Wiley]

After being the recipient of many a HO, like all of us, and not in the good way, that there is a tactical Energy related way to exploit and gain advantage from HO'ing. Wiley and Titan, from your experiments, it would seem that if one is able to get the surprise on the poor guy to be HO'd, say 1.5k or less then said poor guy will have to react violently thus causing major losses in Energy state, positioning and probably SA too. At least that is what I have gathered, as it seems there are some that can HO at you and still win the reversal and onto your 6. 

I still feel a lot of people in this thread have tunnel vision (heh) when it comes to the HO.

If you notice someone bouncing you 1.5k out on your dead six, you're going to have to react as violently as on a HO or possibly even more violently because the closure rate is less.  If he's not coming in at ludicrous speed, I'd personally rather have a guy merging front quarter than rear quarter.

From the sides, you don't really have to pull that hard in many situations to avoid the bounce.

Wiley.

[Arlo]

Earlier this morning .....

[Changeup]

What I've learned is:

HOing can help you get position if you're able to think that far in advance.  I say that because most HOers can't think, much less, think in advance.

[JohnnyHeelz]

That isn't bad right there.... for a Buckeye   

What I've learned is:

HOing can help you get position if you're able to think that far in advance.  I say that because most HOers can't think, much less, think in advance.

[nrshida]

Earlier this morning .....

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Arlo, you're still vulnerable in that first and especially the second picture. What I suggest you work on is,... oh no wait it's Arlo. Carry on bud you're avoiding it perfectly! 

[Arlo]

Arlo, you're still vulnerable in that first and especially the second picture. What I suggest you work on is,... oh no wait it's Arlo. Carry on bud you're avoiding it perfectly! 

No, speak your mind as if I've never done this before. That way you won't look desperate for attention without anything relevant to add.

[nrshida]

No, speak your mind as if I've never done this before. That way you won't look desperate for attention without anything relevant to add.

Nah, more fun knowing you DO have a problem with HOes after all 

[Arlo]

Nah, more fun knowing you DO have a problem with HOes after all 

Well, I've never been one to spoil the simple pleasures of the simple-minded.  Carry on and good luck.

[nrshida]

Well, I've never been one to spoil the simple pleasures of the simple-minded.  Carry on and good luck.

Ah Insults. The last refuge of the out-argued, except in this case you out-argued yourself. What a surprise.