Author Topic: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded  (Read 1509 times)

Offline TDeacon

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2013, 09:52:56 AM »
Well the IL2 should have an overriding advantage agin most tanks......... Specially when it's got PTAB's on board.

I thought it already did have an overriding advantage.  I mean, if you set up a "duel" between a tank and an armed IL2 in AH, which do you think would win?  

MH

Offline TDeacon

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2013, 09:58:13 AM »
<snip>
So the answer then in our simulation game is to create an unrealistic circumstance. You ever post some factual data again on the BBs, I will be there to remind you of your opinions to compromise on gamey features.

This is not another tank game that has a similar interface, this is Aces High. If I wanted the nintendo version of tanking, I would have gotten into it.  

Dirtdart, your "realism" argument has already been commented on by several other posters, but you keep returning to it.  Surely you don't believe that just because something occurs in real life that it must be good for the game, without considering the game play factors as well.  So your proper response should be IMHO to demonstrate why there is this overwhelming need to add TC wounds, even given the game play consequences mentioned.  Instead you keep going back to "realism", which is a bit irritating.  

MH

Offline TDeacon

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2013, 10:05:01 AM »
GVs have a commander viewpoint for the same reason bombers have F3. Tanks versus IL2s is a pretty ridiculous argument actually, because you imply that the aircraft is limited in its attack angle, which is simply not true. You can get above the machine gun arc, and you should. If you want impunity then you are playing the wrong game and using the wrong aircraft. Maybe Lancs at 5k would better suit you?

I would go beyond that (and have) to say that the "commander viewpoint" is prototypical, and not analogous to F3, as real tank commanders usually stuck their heads out of their commander's hatches (and as Dirtdart says, suffered for it).  Where I disagree with him is in his ignoring the AH gameplay consequences of allowing TC wounds, taking into account the typical GV sortie dynamics with respect to attack aircraft. 

MH

Offline dirtdart

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2013, 10:16:25 AM »
Dirtdart, your "realism" argument has already been commented on by several other posters, but you keep returning to it.  Surely you don't believe that just because something occurs in real life that it must be good for the game, without considering the game play factors as well.  So your proper response should be IMHO to demonstrate why there is this overwhelming need to add TC wounds, even given the game play consequences mentioned.  Instead you keep going back to "realism", which is a bit irritating.  

MH

A view I easily accept, I am sure there is a great deal of thought put into game theory and so forth as HTC develops what to make "realistic" and what not to make realistic.  :salute This is something I do not know much about. That is why this is the wishlist thread, not the make it happen thread.

My recent invective is directed at the first guys to point out a lack of realism are now defending a lack of realism, something I find a bit hypocritical.
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2013, 10:37:23 AM »
A view I easily accept, I am sure there is a great deal of thought put into game theory and so forth as HTC develops what to make "realistic" and what not to make realistic.  :salute This is something I do not know much about. That is why this is the wishlist thread, not the make it happen thread.

My recent invective is directed at the first guys to point out a lack of realism are now defending a lack of realism, something I find a bit hypocritical.

Well, we all get irritable at times.  Hopefully there is no deep-seated animosity there...

MH

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2013, 05:33:51 PM »
Your personal attacks are the reason the BBs go to crap. Have an opinion, be civil, and keep direct personal comments out of these discussions. You are a typical BB "tough guy" who just need a real life reality check.

So the answer then in our simulation game is to create an unrealistic circumstance. You ever post some factual data again on the BBs, I will be there to remind you of your opinions to compromise on gamey features.

This is not another tank game that has a similar interface, this is Aces High. If I wanted the nintendo version of tanking, I would have gotten into it. 

Dirtdart you are the one that went there first. Don't blame it off on me. You get what you sow.

For the rest of your 'rant' I will tell you straight up it smells to high heaven. If you don't like being told 'factually' why you are wrong, then you should refrain from posting. Pretty much I posted my opinion, which is the way I see it. I know. You want to prevent rebuttals. Too bad. People are going to disagree. Well, I disagree. Live with it.

As to real life reality checks. Grow up.
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Offline dirtdart

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2013, 08:38:42 AM »
Quality.
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Offline dirtdart

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2013, 08:48:28 AM »
GVs have a commander viewpoint for the same reason bombers have F3. Tanks versus IL2s is a pretty ridiculous argument actually, because you imply that the aircraft is limited in its attack angle, which is simply not true. You can get above the machine gun arc, and you should. If you want impunity then you are playing the wrong game and using the wrong aircraft. Maybe Lancs at 5k would better suit you?

So where in my post do I imply an aircraft is limited in its attack?

A tank can shoot down an airplane in a shallow dive. Impunity is not what I am after I actually prefer gving these days. If you want I could use hand puppets.

My point, my only point, is that risk should be shared. A player space should be modeled into the tc position. This would not only force guys into the gunsights where tanks were actually aimed. It would force them to shoot visible lines of sight (the exact root of my wish). I disagree with tanks behind berms spawn camping from positions where the bulk of the tank and its realistic line of sight is concealed, because a game interaction feature allows them to do so. Now again I am trying to figure out where and why you decided to make this thread personal bu suggesting I would be better off lanc Stukaing tanks and calling things bs.

Tdeacon brings up angles I had not considered such as the effect on gameplay that change might have. One that I weighed, and thought about. Very few dedicated gvrs kill the ords at nearby bases just to tank, generally they hope a countryman keeps them down. I also felt that in a similar fashion, when you are being strafed, and all you would have to do was get into the turret position, that would not be so bad. But, in tank on tank fights having to shift between the two (like we did in the old days) would mess the play up. Wish withdrawn. Thanks for the thoughts deacon. (S)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 09:07:38 AM by dirtdart »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2013, 10:24:58 AM »
<snip>
I disagree with tanks behind berms spawn camping from positions where the bulk of the tank and its realistic line of sight is concealed, because a game interaction feature allows them to do so.
<snip>

I always looked at this as being equivalent to "hull-down" or "turret-down" positioning, which was clearly historical for WWII.  I am thinking of the Crisp memoir "Brazen Chariots" (Operation Crusader) in particular.

MH

Offline Tilt

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2013, 02:09:03 PM »
I thought it already did have an overriding advantage.  I mean, if you set up a "duel" between a tank and an armed IL2 in AH, which do you think would win?  

MH

It does I was expressing the opinion that this was rightly so. Infact it should have even a greater advantage than it does now............... (no PTAB's yet)

back on subject.............

It seems that by use of Pan (F8) the top view would still permit full 360 degree visuals............. so I return to the opinion that strafing the TC (when the player was in that position) would bring about (IMO) the appropriate consequence of losing the link between the upper turret position and the ability to manipulate and fire the main gun.

It would be akin to the other crew members having to multi-task and there by lose some TC functionality.
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2013, 11:04:32 AM »
It does I was expressing the opinion that this was rightly so. Infact it should have even a greater advantage than it does now............... (no PTAB's yet)

back on subject.............

It seems that by use of Pan (F8) the top view would still permit full 360 degree visuals............. so I return to the opinion that strafing the TC (when the player was in that position) would bring about (IMO) the appropriate consequence of losing the link between the upper turret position and the ability to manipulate and fire the main gun.

It would be akin to the other crew members having to multi-task and there by lose some TC functionality.


The f8 pan is too slow for good SA.  You want near instantaneous.  But I don't think that's the real issue here.  What this boils down to is a ground-attack guy wanting GVs to be easier to kill.  Game play consequences there...

MH

Offline Tilt

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Re: Tank Commander Pilot Wounded
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2013, 12:55:06 PM »

The f8 pan is too slow for good SA.  You want near instantaneous.  But I don't think that's the real issue here.  What this boils down to is a ground-attack guy wanting GVs to be easier to kill.  Game play consequences there...

MH


Would also make the TC vulnerable to just about any MG fired from a jeep or an M3?................ shouldn't a jeep at least keep the TC down under his turret? ........... should the TC be able to fire upon said jeep from his position totally invulnerable to any return fire? not to mention M16 or M8 etc etc.
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