P-63 KingCobra......again

[save]

high altitude g6 (AS engine)
Ki44
J2m2/3
Pe-2
Spit-7
Ju-52
Beaufighter
Meteor
Fw190a2
Fw190a9
Wellington
He177

[Arlo]

Middle of the pack. Somewhere below more significant gaps (F4F-3, Ki-44, Ki-45, TBD-1, SB2C, Yak 1, MiG-3, Beaufighter, B6N, D4Y, etc.) but above adding more to the already-crowded Late War fighter (to allow for the late-war Helldiver, which is a pretty gaping hole for the USN) set.

Oh, could also use an early B-17 (probably F since that was the second most-produced variant) since the G was never deployed to the PTO and is out of place in that setting.

So .... probably not in the top 18, eh? 

[Tank-Ace]

Germany could use a Do 217, or a Ju 188. Also a Ju 52. The 190F is in dire need of an ordnance update m(ost loadouts would require no visual modeling.)

All at several orders of magnitude more important than the P-63.

[Guppy35]

Germany could use a Do 217, or a Ju 188. Also a Ju 52. The 190F is in dire need of an ordnance update m(ost loadouts would require no visual modeling.)

All at several orders of magnitude more important than the P-63.

But that's where it becomes a matter of opinion. 

I saw someone mention the TBD.  OK so it gets used and abused for Coral Sea and Midway every couple of years in events.  It's a non starter as an MA bird and how many guys are really going to sign up to fly them in an event?

Well that covers about as much use as the 63 in August Storm in terms of time frame and I'd suggest the 63 was far more successful then the TBD. 

Guys throw out different German bombers as you did here.  How effective were they?  Not very.  So the benefit to the game is?

The 63 is just as viable an alternative as the Ta152 and I don't see any of you gents complaining that the 152 is in.

For me it comes down to what birds provide the most bang for the buck in both the MA and events.  No question the 63 isn't going to be a big event bird.  But it's a very viable MA alternative. 

Is it first on my list?  Nope, not even close.  But to suggest some of the birds mentioned are far more important than the King, is just silly.

[Megalodon]

But that's where it becomes a matter of opinion.  

The 63 is just as viable an alternative as the Ta152 and I don't see any of you gents complaining that the 152 is in.

For me it comes down to what birds provide the most bang for the buck in both the MA and events.  No question the 63 isn't going to be a big event bird.  But it's a very viable MA alternative.  

Is it first on my list?  Nope, But to suggest some of the birds mentioned are far more important than the King, is just silly.

 We don't agree often... okay almost never... but these  


The part I don't get is ...why does it always have to be for something, gap filler.... why cant we just have a bird for the fun   of it like the Boomer or the P-51 and the 63 or j2m5  just because their cool?. The D520 will draw subs I have no doubt.

 

[Butcher]

Germany could use a Do 217, or a Ju 188. Also a Ju 52. The 190F is in dire need of an ordnance update m(ost loadouts would require no visual modeling.)

All at several orders of magnitude more important than the P-63.

Actually the P-63 is just as importance as everything else listed, because it served in squadron strength and in combat just like everything except some of what you listed.

[Butcher]

For me it comes down to what birds provide the most bang for the buck in both the MA and events.  No question the 63 isn't going to be a big event bird.  But it's a very viable MA alternative. 

You have to understand, Tank doesn't care what plane you put up on the wishlist, if its not luftwaffe it doesn't matter, I used to think Karnak had the same narrow point of view wanting nothing but british except for fact that Karnak wanted aircrafts that SEEN combat and in squad strength.
His arguments went towards keeping it realistic and adding the proper aircraft. Tank-Ace wants German Iron regardless, even if its a prototype that never seen combat, or tanks for that matter. The Maus never seen combat, but it was german so it must be in game.

I realized a long time ago and I am still narrow minded today even, not country minded but In fact I will vote on any scenario driven aircraft vs what should be added in game. CAC boomerang I still consider the most useless addition to Aces, it didn't have a single combat victory, same with the Meteor Jet. Until you read the stories of heroic by pilots who put their lives on the line to tip over a V-1 bomb, that you truly understand, when combat isn't just a video game.

I will admit I vote on an early war frame more then anything else, because the simply fact is the EW and MW frames bore the brunt of the fighting over everything else. They served in combat, thats all that is needed to be said.

[Karnak]

I try to mix scenario aircraft and MA aircraft into my requested aircraft, but I always favor historically significant units over irrelevant units.

In my opinion the P-63 is right behind the Meteor Mk III in significance.  Both have the advantage that they would be MA units, but both would also be perked, which reduces that advantage somewhat.

For the time being I see many other aircraft as being more important to add, both MA and scenario aircraft.  Guppy mentioned the TBD as being so narrow as to not be worth adding, but the Japanese are saddled with their equivalent to the TBD even in 1945 scenarios, so the B6N and/or D4Y would be good scenario additions.  The Tu-2 would be an excellent MA addition and a good scenario addition.  The Beaufighter and SM.79-II would be good scenario addions.  The Ki-44-II and J2M3 would be decent scenario and MA additions.  We desperately need the Bf109G-6/AS or Bf109G-14/AS.

Once we have things like those out of the way, then maybe the Meteor Mk III, P-63, He162 and B7A2 might be good additions.

In my opinion.

[Guppy35]

Just out of curiosity why do we 'desperately need' the Bf109G-6/AS or Bf109G-14/AS?

To me that's a bit like 'desperately needing' a Spitfire XII, Spitfire LFVc and a Seafire LFIIIc and probably a true full span wing Spitfire LFIX.  Would it be nice?  Sure.  Desperate for them....not so sure

Obviously my first choice is the Beaufighter for a new addition. 

I wouldn't believe a P63 would be a perk plane by any means.  At best it gives the Cobra fans a chance to keep up in the late war plane filled MA. 
 

[Tank-Ace]

It saw combat..... strafing ground units. If it didn't shoot anything down, its right near the bottom of the priority list (especially since MA value would be minimal, due to perking, as Karnak mentioned). Could it be added? Sure, but it seems like it has zero actual special event use that doesn't revolve around strafing field structures, or vehicles that will literally just laugh at the bb's.


The fact of the matter is that it saw zero combat, as the term is typically taken to mean in AH. It provides almost ZERO historical value, other than the "it existed" factor. It provides minimal MA value, as 99% of you guys will almost never fly it. It provides absolutely zero special events value, unless someone creates a "what would happen if the Russian-flown US super-fighter actually shot something down?" event.


Guppy, you miss some very important points when replying to me.

1) I didn't ask for the TBD. Never really have beyond saying "it would be cool to eventually have".

2) The Do 217 and Ju 188 would both be 300mph + bombers, the Do 217 being around 340mph at altitude. The slower Ju 188 would be more heavily armed. Both would fill the 1943-1945 gap we have in Axis bombers. The Do 217 would also let us add the Fritz X bomb, should HTC ever decide to unleash that monstrosity on us. Both saw more actual use than the P-63.

3) nobody is going to ever going to seriously lobby for something already existing to be removed. HTC chose to use their time on the Ta-152 instead of a high-altitude 109; thats their decision, and I'm not complaining from an MA standpoint, but I will try to block such poor choices from happening again. The "we already did one stupid thing, so lets do more" fallacy is particularly annoying.

4) The Ta 152 meets all of the de facto requirements, while the P-63 does not meet the kill stipulation. And because it actually had aerial kills, its more relevant and historical in typical AH combat (air to air).\

5) To suggest all of them are more important is simply factual. Aside from the raw performance aspect, there isn't one single thing that makes the P-63 a better addition from either the MA standpoint or the special event standpoint. From the special event standpoint, they are infinitely more useful, and I mean this in the literal sense. The TBD would be infinitely more useful, since we have events we could run that would actually let us use them without turning it into a "what if" situation.

[Tank-Ace]

Actually the P-63 is just as importance as everything else listed, because it served in squadron strength and in combat just like everything except some of what you listed.

This is just patently untrue. They all saw greater use (much greater use in the case of all but the 190F) , most were in actual service for longer, and all but the Ju 52 for sure had aerial kills. They are all more useful in special events. Arguably all but the Ju 52 are more useful in the MA due to the fact that they wouldn't be perked.

Just out of curiosity why do we 'desperately need' the Bf109G-6/AS or Bf109G-14/AS?

To me that's a bit like 'desperately needing' a Spitfire XII, Spitfire LFVc and a Seafire LFIIIc and probably a true full span wing Spitfire LFIX.  Would it be nice?  Sure.  Desperate for them....not so sure

Obviously my first choice is the Beaufighter for a new addition. 

I wouldn't believe a P63 would be a perk plane by any means.  At best it gives the Cobra fans a chance to keep up in the late war plane filled MA. 
 

We need a high alt 109 because all but the K4 are horrendously out-classed in the 25+k altitude band in your typical LW event. The instant P-51's and P-47's enter the mix, the 109's are at an unrealistic disadvantage due to the simple fact that we're missing any high altitude models. If you ever flew axis in a LW event, you know we're desperate for one, even if we're not frantically desperate.

And the P-63 would certainly be perked. 5000fpm climb, about 380mph on the deck. 4x .50's and a 37mm. Thats better than the F4U-4, which is perked.

[Chalenge]

We need a high alt 109 because all but the K4 are horrendously out-classed in the 25+k altitude band in your typical LW event. The instant P-51's and P-47's enter the mix, the 109's are at an unrealistic disadvantage due to the simple fact that we're missing any high altitude models. If you ever flew axis in a LW event, you know we're desperate for one, even if we're not frantically desperate.

Two things here:

1) Horse Hockey! You can pick a different plane already and not be in any disadvantage. Hangar choices that we have now do not make a good basis for more wishes to be included. It's like wishing for more wishes.

2) due to. . . means you owe money. Just saying.

[Wmaker]

Guys throw out different German bombers as you did here.  How effective were they?  Not very.  So the benefit to the game is?

Very, very poor argumentation.

The fact that Germany was losing the war doesn't tell anything about how effective these bombers would be in the LWMA, performance figures tell you that. Ju188 for example would be a competitive bomber in the MA.

[Saxman]

Frankly, this thread is all about trying to justify adding another Late War monster to an arena already oversaturated with them, and one that has ZERO use outside the Mains at that.

The P-63 is nowhere NEAR as important to add to the plane set as the "gap fillers" for that very reason alone.

[Vinkman]

Yeah, because there's not enough late-war monsters to choose from.

It's called a "Gap Filler" because it fills a hole that needs plugging.

You use the word need when you mean want. Why does the game need planes that will be hangar queens? Why do you want planes just to "fill holes in line ups"?  That's the weakest argument for adding a plane.

The Kingcobra will not be a late war monster, its armament will prevent it from becoming an "easy mode"  plane for noobs, and experts alike. It will be flown by fans only. But there are a solid group of us.