How to avoid the HO shot.

[morfiend]

Then he could do that, and just that. Tell me that it inverted doesn't make sense in that context, and what a better term would be. But this....
Is unnecessary, and obviously meant to be a tad insulting.

 I can see from your prospective that you might consider it insulting,sort of in the way a kid with his hand in the cookie jar.

  Kingpin hit the nail on the head!  I have to deal with it,some player just the other night came into the TA and asked me to show him some fancy move I had no idea of.

  Then another player came along and took over telling the first player he could show him how to do the "cobra" from redtails the movie....

 I cant tell you how many players asked me to show them how to do a tailslide like it was some magic move that wins fights. So I make it a point to show players in the "help and training" forum that a lot of what is said and posted is utter nonsense!

  Tank you strung together a couple of words to make it sound like you knew what you were talking about or to make it sound like it. All you needed to say was I enter the merge in a barrel roll,then when a player comes to me and asks how to enter a merge in a barrel roll I'll know or have an idea what they are talking about.


   If you think this or my previous posts were personal attacks well you have the option to report to moderator..... feel free to use it.



   

[Kingpin]

Hi Jager,

Since you are still defending your made-up ACM term, let me address this as diplomatically as I can.  Please try not to get defensive about it.  I'm not trying to be a jerk or make you look bad. I'm trying to clear up the misunderstanding here and explain why it happened (which is not entirely what you think).

Based on your earlier descriptions, it sounds like you nose down (apply neg G's) and then do a barrel roll.  If so, that is all you need to say.  The rest is unnecessary and misleading fluff.  Here's why:

I did a barrel roll (or canopy roll, both would appear to be accurate descriptions of the basic maneuver performed), and there was a large amount of displacement.  

After a quick look around, there is no specific name for such a maneuver in which the original heading is maintained.

Yes there are terms for this, and you just used them.  They are "barrel roll" or "canopy roll", which are displacement rolls in which the original heading is maintained.

Thus the term "high displacement barrel roll" would be accurate if positive g's were being pulled.

No, this is a made-up term and does not exist.  You are doing a "barrel roll".  If you want to say it is a barrel roll with a large amount of vertical or horizontal displacement, then just say that.  The problem with using the term "high displacement" is that a barrel roll by it's very nature is a displacement roll and "high" can mean multiple things (just in this context alone), so it comes off as confusing and unnecessary fluff, not an accurate ACM term.

Now, the definition of inverted is "put upside down or in the opposite position, order, or arrangement.". And what I did was the mirror image of a high displacement barrel roll, only with negative g's. Thus the term "inverted" is, if not perfectly fitting, then at least quite close.

The word "inverted" is the wrong term, even if you think it's close.  But it wasn't the only problem with the term you made up.  

I'm curious, though, about your claim that this is a completely negative-G maneuver (for which you were using the term inverted).  Are you doing a barrel roll while canopy outward during the entire roll?  If so, I'd love to see a film of this.  Although, I don't see any benefit of doing it negative-G, because the con is passing inside your roll and you (by being canopy out) would be losing sight of the con for most of the maneuver.

What I think you are really describing is pushing negative-G's (nosing down) and then doing a barrel roll.  These are two separate simple maneuvers put together.  And it is a good "move".  In fact, if you had just said: "I just nose down into the merge and then do a wide barrel roll to avoid the HO" it would have been a very good post IMO.

There was no ACM pre-established ACM term to describe what I was trying to describe.

Yes, I think there was.  You just didn't know it.  So, you felt obliged to make something up.  I think you can see now why that is not a good idea on the training forum.

That is a fact. And because I said "inverted" instead of "negative-g", Feind got upset.
The implication was that I was trying to sound more knowledgeable than I am, and that I was intentionally just making up terms willy nilly. That is unnecessary, and frankly not becoming of a trainer.

It isn't "fact" if you are making it up.  You did make up a term that had inaccuracies.  

You have to remember that this is a real pet peeve of trainers, when people put false or misleading information on the training forum.  It IS their job to refute that kind of "information" on the Training Forum.  It also is in their best interest to discourage people from posting things they have to refute or correct. Unfortunately, you were on the wrong side of things this time.  

I'm not a trainer, but I think what I said was accurate.  However, if I posted something incorrect here, I hope someone will correct me, both for my benefit, and more importantly for the benefit of those reading it who may not know better.

For the record, Jager is right about this: a slight nose down followed by a barrel roll can effectively avoid a HO shot.

<S>
Ryno

[FLS]

You don't need the correct terminology to post here. Somebody will figure out what you mean to say.

[Arlo]

You don't need the correct terminology to post here. Somebody will figure out what you mean to say.

So I could post something like 'inverted retro-spin slide' and that might make sense to you? 

[FLS]

So I could post something like 'inverted retro-spin slide' and that might make sense to you? 

As much as anything else you post.   

[Arlo]

As much as anything else you post.   

No no no, don't make it about me. It's all about the terminology. Describe 'inverted retro-spin slide.' 

[Wiley]

You don't need the correct terminology to post here.

But it certainly does help.  Meaning a barrel roll and calling it a loop, or talking about flap usage when you mean elevator muddles communication.

Calling a rope followed by a torque-induced snaproll an inverted retro-spin slide doesn't help anybody.

Wiley.

[FLS]

But it certainly does help.  Meaning a barrel roll and calling it a loop, or talking about flap usage when you mean elevator muddles communication.

Calling a rope followed by a torque-induced snaproll an inverted retro-spin slide doesn't help anybody.

Wiley.

Thanks for clearing that up Wiley. 

I would hate for a player to not ask a question because he thought he might not use the correct term.  You guys are getting it backwards. You come to Help and Training to learn what is correct. You don't need to know the answer before you ask. We want to encourage questions. The last thing we need is another reason for people not to ask them.

[Arlo]

Thanks for clearing that up Wiley. 

I would hate for a player to not ask a question because he thought he might not use the correct term.  You guys are getting it backwards. You come to Help and Training to learn what is correct. You don't need to know the answer before you ask. We want to encourage questions. The last thing we need is another reason for people not to ask them.

Nobody is suggesting new players not ask questions. What's being suggested is that veteran players not make up stuff to confuse the new players (and their trainers).

New player: Hey, that was a cool move! What's it called?

Vet player who just recovered from a tumble: It's a 'inverted retro power-slide hammer-twist.'

New player: Let me write that down for practice in the TA with a trainer.

[Wiley]

Nobody is suggesting new players not ask questions. What's being suggested is that veteran players not make up stuff to confuse the new players (and their trainers).

This.

Wiley.

[Tank-Ace]

Except what I said actually made some amount of sense, following the actual meaning of the words.

Regardless of what any trainer says, I was not entirely incoherent, and I'd thank you not to make a molehill into Mt. Everest

[Arlo]

I always do a high displaced inverted barrel roll. Since coming back, I have yet to be pinged while Doing this.

Description of what sounded like a rather complicated and confusing maneuver:

Push down on the stick, and "do a barrel roll".

Having said such - you can't do a barrel-roll while pushing down on the stick.

[FLS]

Having said such - you can't do a barrel-roll while pushing down on the stick.

Why not?

[Arlo]

Why not?

Seriously? Here:

Execution

To do a barrel roll in its purest form, from the pilot's perspective, it may best be thought of as a roll around a point on the horizon that is 45 degrees off the flightpath. Starting from a level flight, the pilot will usually pick such a point on the horizon as a reference, which is typically between the nose and the wing-tip, out the side window (if the plane has side windows). This point can be anything in that area, like a distant lake, mountain peak, or cloud. The pilot will then pull back on the stick, bringing the plane up into a brief climb. As the nose passes through the horizon, the pilot begins to apply aileron input, which is accomplished by easing the stick to either the right or the left. As the airplane rolls it will continue to pitch in the direction of the lift vector. The pilot will need to carefully control the roll rate, keeping the nose 45 degrees off the reference point on the horizon as the nose traces a circle around this spot. Some planes may require rudder input, while most high powered planes will only need to be guided by aileron and elevator control.

When the aircraft has rolled 90 degrees, and the wings are vertical, the nose should be angled about 45 degrees directly above the reference point. As the plane continues to roll upside-down it will begin to level out, and the horizon will appear to rise to meet the nose. When in the completely inverted position, the aircraft should be level and the nose should still be 45 degrees to the side of the reference point, putting it 90 degrees off the original flightpath. As the nose drops through the horizon, the pilot may need to reduce the elevator pressure, to avoid altitude loss by counteracting the force of gravity and the loss of lift. Still keeping the nose 45 degrees off the reference point, the plane should roll into level flight along the same flightpath and at the same altitude at which the maneuver began. If properly performed, the reference point should appear to remain in a fairly stationary position, relative to the plane, while the horizon spins around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_roll


Rolling scissors


A high-G barrel roll, performed over the top and underneath


A displacement roll, providing a reduction in turn radius


A canopy roll


A lag roll


Barrel roll attack

Which one of the above involves 'stick down?'  (This is not a trick question.)

[Tank-Ace]

I'll post film when I'm done with lectures. It'll be fun to prove Arlo wrong.