Early Man

[GScholz]

Please explain how you get morality without a god ability.  You do realize you would have to be a moral authority right?

I have read several "holy books" from cover to cover, and I have yet to find one that I would consider "moral". For every example of moral deeds described, there are a score of other acts I find utterly deplorable. Sure if you cherry pick the verses you like and that happen to coincide with modern secular consensus, you can call that "moral". However you'd need a rationale for why you left out all the immoral parts, like killing and torturing people for trivial or even nonsensical reasons. It's almost like these holy books were written by sexist, misogynistic, homophobic, violent, sexually frustrated men, instead of a loving God. Weird huh!

[Karnak]

Please explain how you get morality without a god ability.  You do realize you would have to be a moral authority right?

There have been multiple studies that describe reasons and mechanisms for this.  I cannot go into more here.

[Bizman]

I believe there has never been any society or civilization without some kind of a religion which summarizes their moral code among other things. There certainly are people that say their moral is independent of any religion, but I strongly suppose that at least their grandparents and their ancestors have been raised to follow the religious rules, sharing their values and moral down to younger generations.

[GScholz]

In essence it is very simple. The tribe that don't murder each other, but helps one another, helps the tribe's children survive, and defends other tribal members from attack, has an evolutionary advantage over a tribe with no "morals". By helping others you ultimately help yourself, and that is the basis of all morality and the fabric of human civilization itself. You see this in nature; the buffalo heard, the wolf pack, the lion pride. Together they are more fit to survive than on their own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

These animals have no religion, worship no God.

[Bizman]

These animals have no religion, worship no God.

How do you know? Can you speak Animal?

Anyway, especially in primitive cultures the idea of mutual back scratching might not have worked without some all-seeing authority. I'm not quite sure if it worked today, psychological tests where people have been given power over others without fear of punishment have given quite a dark picture of the human nature.

[GScholz]

Punishment is exactly what those buffaloes did to the lions for trying to take one of the herd's calf. It didn't matter to them that this calf was not their own; it was the right thing to do.

[NatCigg]

try to beat up a dogs friend and see what happens.   

[gyrene81]

These animals have no religion, worship no God.

 that's a good one.

Punishment is exactly what those buffaloes did to the lions for trying to take one of the herd's calf. It didn't matter to them that this calf was not their own; it was the right thing to do.

                     stop, i'm going to pee...

how does a creature with no sense of right or wrong determine what is the right thing to do?

Morality is indeed possible without a god.  I admit, I was skeptical at first too (and that may easily have been because I was still active in the church at the time, so was following the ideas I'd been taught).  Lots and lots of religion- and ethics-oriented classes and studies showed me that it is indeed possible to have morals without religion.


If it comes down to success, survival, etc, society will alter its sense of morality (regardless of belief in god).

sorry but no, it is not possible for man to dictate his own moral code the way you're thinking. even the ethics lesssons you received had some religious basis. we may be social creatures but we're also savages. consider the fact that even now, there are things we in the u.s. view as immoral that are not viewed the same way in other societies around the planet. and our morals today are different from those of 200, 500, 1000 even 2000 years ago. even the basic idea that life is precious did not always exist within human society...not to mention cannibalism, inter family relations, same sex relations, etc...

[GScholz]

how does a creature with no sense of right or wrong determine what is the right thing to do?

The right thing to do is what helps an animal survive, and what has helped its species survive. For humans it means forming communities for common defense and resource sharing. For wolves it means banding together to hunt and kill prey more easily. For a wolf it is morally right to kill you for food. For a human it is morally right to kill the wolf to protect not only himself, but another human being. A common defense makes a tribe stronger. The tribes that didn't died out long ago.

[mechanic]

Humans have become brain rich and instinct poor

[Bizman]

For a human it is morally right to kill the wolf to protect not only himself, but another human being.

With that logic killing all wolves would be morally right. As well as bears and lions and other animals that might be dangerous for a human being. Instead we try to protect them because that is considered to be the human thing to do.

[GScholz]

With that logic killing all wolves would be morally right. As well as bears and lions and other animals that might be dangerous for a human being. Instead we try to protect them because that is considered to be the human thing to do.

I don't agree with these tree-huggers that want to preserve the wolf in our fauna. It isn't dangerous for humans at this level, but it is a pest that kill domesticated animals. It should be exterminated.

In fact, most apex predators that pose a threat to humans should be exterminated. Unless there are less severe, yet economically and practically feasible ways to protect humans from them.

[mechanic]

Not true Bizman. We only kill the wolf when it is a threat. Other than a threatening situation we respect another apex predator. We still behave like this today even though we want to protect the species, we still kill it if it becomes a threat.

[Bizman]

"Not true"??? There still are countries that pay for every killed wolf, like Russia. A couple of generations ago that was true also here. The same has applied to other big carnivores, too, resulting numerous trophies in the parlors of civilized gentlemen, cornerstones in their community and congregation...

[GScholz]

You think that is morally wrong?