Early Man

[Bizman]

You think that is morally wrong?

Killing to extinction? Yes.

[gyrene81]

The right thing to do is what helps an animal survive, and what has helped its species survive. For humans it means forming communities for common defense and resource sharing. For wolves it means banding together to hunt and kill prey more easily. For a wolf it is morally right to kill you for food. For a human it is morally right to kill the wolf to protect not only himself, but another human being. A common defense makes a tribe stronger. The tribes that didn't died out long ago.

you're mistaking instinct with choice. there is no right or wrong choice, it is only the instinct for survival of the species. in the end the survival instinct forces animals to flee from the threat rather than risk death to protect a weaker member of the herd/pack.

[GScholz]

Killing to extinction? Yes.

In what scripture or holy book did you learn this "moral code" ?

[gyrene81]

In what scripture or holy book did you learn this "moral code" ?

the books of genesis, matthew, mark, luke and john...

[GScholz]

you're mistaking instinct with choice. there is no right or wrong choice, it is only the instinct for survival of the species. in the end the survival instinct forces animals to flee from the threat rather than risk death to protect a weaker member of the herd/pack.

If you saw that video I posted you would have seen the exact opposite. A herd of buffalo facing down a lion pride to save a weaker member of the herd.

[GScholz]

the books of genesis, matthew, mark, luke and john...

Anything in those about killing wolves?

[Bizman]

In what scripture or holy book did you learn this "moral code" ?

None. My opinion is based on the laws of nature. If all of the beasts are killed, their prey will increase in population. Would that bring more meat on the tables of the poor? I doubt.

[GScholz]

Humans have replaced the wolf as apex predator. Wolves compete with human hunters for the same prey animals, and the wolves also prey on domesticated animals like sheep. They're a pest.

[gyrene81]

If you saw that video I posted you would have seen the exact opposite. A herd of buffalo facing down a lion pride to save a weaker member of the herd.

and? that's still not a choice for right or wrong, it is pure instinct. and in the end, survival of the rest of the herd won out...

Anything in those about killing wolves?

lol, you're really reaching for the stars now aren't you? yes, they are lumped in with "every living creature".

[Saxman]

Humans have replaced the wolf as apex predator. Wolves compete with human hunters for the same prey animals, and the wolves also prey on domesticated animals like sheep. They're a pest.

This is the point where I stop agreeing with you. Humans are NOT replacing the wolves as the apex predator in the ecosystems in which the wolves are being destroyed. So no, humans are NOT taking over controlling the populations of the prey animals. Deer populations have been exploding in areas where wolves have been removed, and are in turn wreaking havoc on the local ecosystem and making a general nuisance of THEMSELVES.

[Karnak]

This is the point where I stop agreeing with you. Humans are NOT replacing the wolves as the apex predator in the ecosystems in which the wolves are being destroyed. So no, humans are NOT taking over controlling the populations of the prey animals. Deer populations have been exploding in areas where wolves have been removed, and are in turn wreaking havoc on the local ecosystem and making a general nuisance of THEMSELVES.

Yup.

We can't kill off the ecosystem one inconvenient species at a time.

[SlidingHorn]

Yup.

We can't kill off the ecosystem one inconvenient species at a time.

Maybe not, but we'll try like hell!   

[GScholz]

and? that's still not a choice for right or wrong, it is pure instinct. and in the end, survival of the rest of the herd won out...

Advanced animals like most mammalian life are not purely instinct driven, but intelligent, feeling beings. Some are highly intelligent, approaching human levels. In India dolphins have recently been given certain rights of freedom as "non-human persons", which means that killing them or holding them captive is now illegal. A buffalo is not that intelligent, but far from just instinct-driven. Herd animals have social structures and codes of conduct, and these can vary from different herds of the same species.

[Bizman]

Yup.

We can't kill off the ecosystem one inconvenient species at a time.

Exactly. Agreed, the wolf could eat our cattle, but what about the Pyrenean ibex? The last one got killed in 2000. Was it threatening the pasturing of mountain cows, leaving the poor children of the local farmers without milk? Or did the male ibex just have a good looking pair of horns?

Advanced animals like most mammalian life are not purely instinct driven, but intelligent, feeling beings. Some are highly intelligent, approaching human levels.

Recent studies have proved wolves to be highly intelligent. Yet you just said they're pest, killing of which weren't wrong.

[GScholz]

This is the point where I stop agreeing with you. Humans are NOT replacing the wolves as the apex predator in the ecosystems in which the wolves are being destroyed. So no, humans are NOT taking over controlling the populations of the prey animals. Deer populations have been exploding in areas where wolves have been removed, and are in turn wreaking havoc on the local ecosystem and making a general nuisance of THEMSELVES.

In your corner of the world that may be the case. and perhaps the wolf has a place in nature there. In my corner the wolves are barely scraping out a living, and must compete against human hunters. Life is hard in Norway. Especially in winter.