Why can AH planes climb when missing a wing by bank ing 90.....

[BnZs]

Yes, that's a normal tame stall.  But planes behave a lot differently when people are doing highly accelerated stalls with crossed controls.  Then you can get all kinds of weird behavior, such as here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWwI6gZw67g

I think Frenchy was talking about more of tail-slide type maneuver than any sort of spin.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Yes, that's a normal tame stall.  But planes behave a lot differently when people are doing highly accelerated stalls with crossed controls.  Then you can get all kinds of weird behavior, such as here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWwI6gZw67g

Thank you for the link BnZ, but those stalls from those instructional vids were very tame. Manufacturers videos are also often ridiculous to sell what they want. Here are some from Pilatus on the PC12 to sell you why you need a stick pusher. Basically stalls with and without stick pushers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNRK2aUmWWI 

We stall it without the pusher, and you do have a significant instant nose down 30/40 degrees but nothing like this video  Pull gently to avoid a secondary stall while performing the recovery items, and you loose 400 ft max.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

BnZ what I'm refering too is like this :

You are in a slow turnfight, you pull your nose upward to try to make it to over the top and your controls inputs stop responding. Ok, I'm in a deep stall and not enough airflow for my controls to respond. I understand that. But the nose, your attitude stays the same for a couple of seconds, like you are 'stuck', then something gives and you have 'the stall' where the nose still doesn't go down, it's whobeling around till finally you 'brake it' with your rudder/power. To me it's not natural, because all the planes I flew have a significant 'break' when you enter a deep stall, with the nose significantly and abruptly droping even while you have no control response.

Same with entering a spin. Take a Spitfire, even a P47. Throttle to idle while straight and level, flaps up, Apply and maintain full rudder on one side. You'll be able to maintain control of your stall with the nose moderately oscilliating up and down. Again, the plane I flew would go into a spin right away when stalled with full rudder deflection.

I think it's just reaching the limit of an already great flight model programation, but because it's a combat sim and we push the envellop so much, those issues pop out. As 'loose' as IL2 Sturvovik was with A/C performances and weapons, the 'nose over' part in a dogfight was a delight, felt real to me. That's the best I can explain it. 

[Brooke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNRK2aUmWWI 

Cool.  Looks sort of like the f4u stall behavior from its films.

[dirtdart]

I am not sure there are many real pilots who deliberate depart their airplanes and the attempt to use thrust and torqueto mmaintain a high aoa like we do in the game.would probably have been certain death in combat as it is in the game.

[colmbo]

But the nose, your attitude stays the same for a couple of seconds, like you are 'stuck', then something gives and you have 'the stall' where the nose still doesn't go down, it's whobeling around till finally you 'brake it' with your rudder/power. To me it's not natural, because all the planes I flew have a significant 'break' when you enter a deep stall, with the nose significantly and abruptly droping even while you have no control response.

Same with entering a spin.

I very much agree. The stall/post stall model isn't right.  Once any inertia or gyroscopic forces are negated the nose should drop. You don't see arrows falling fletching first.

However have yet to find a sim that does stall behavior well.

[Skyyr]

I very much agree. The stall/post stall model isn't right.  Once any inertia or gyroscopic forces are negated the nose should drop. You don't see arrows falling fletching first.

However have yet to find a sim that does stall behavior well.

I agree here. No plane I have EVER flown has ever exhibited similar stall or spin characteristics remotely similar to anything ingame. Once buffeting passed and stall was entered, the floor falls out from under you.

[BnZs]

I agree here. No plane I have EVER flown has ever exhibited similar stall or spin characteristics remotely similar to anything ingame. Once buffeting passed and stall was entered, the floor falls out from under you.

Most "ace" duels in AHII if they go on long enough end up in what I call the "ruddering scissors"-IOW an exchanged series of pullups and roughly hammerhead-style rotations in the yaw axis to come back down and take the shot, as opposed to the barrrel-rolling around each other one would expect. It is very common. I've also seen flat rotation in the yaw axis used quite a bit as well. For instance, being in a Corsair's rear quarter, both of you having gotten very slow in the fight, and suddenly the Corsair  seems to rotate about 135 degrees in the air and suddenly it is basically a head-on merge again. I've had a few ????????? about a lot of this stuff. 90% of fights are still won or lost by more conventional maneuvering though, so I take it in stride.

[FLS]

Stall turns in ACM  seem likely to have occurred in WW2 even if stall fighting was not as common as it is in AH.

WW2 fighter aircraft were designed to different safety/stability standards compared to civilian aircraft. I don't see why they should stall the same way.

[Brooke]

So, would you guys say that these stall behaviors are unrealistic?  I doubt that these stall behaviors match most people's real-life flying.

See footage starting at 6:37 in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWwI6gZw67g

And this one from start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5ut3tP3ZM

[BnZs]

Stall turns in ACM  seem likely to have occurred in WW2 even if stall fighting was not as common as it is in AH.

WW2 fighter aircraft were designed to different safety/stability standards compared to civilian aircraft. I don't see why they should stall the same way.

But is stall behavior that allows the "ruddering scissors" to replace the "rolling scissors" realistic?

[BnZs]

What the first video showed was a P-39 tumbling like a leaf in a spin, loosing thousands of feet of altitude while doing so. What Frenchy was describing was a P-47 getting stuck "nose up" I think. What I'm talking about with my remarks is being able to pull up to the vertical, essentially hammerhead, take a shot accurately, and continue to be able to fly and fight effectively. As opposed to say spinning and losing thousands of feet of altitude.

So, would you guys say that these stall behaviors are unrealistic?  I doubt that these stall behaviors match most people's real-life flying.

See footage starting at 6:37 in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWwI6gZw67g

And this one from start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5ut3tP3ZM

[FLS]

But is stall behavior that allows the "ruddering scissors" to replace the "rolling scissors" realistic?

I don't understand what you think is wrong with it. Isn't it just a different slower way to get over the top? Don't we see it in airshows?

[Skyyr]

What the first video showed was a P-39 tumbling like a leaf in a spin, loosing thousands of feet of altitude while doing so. What Frenchy was describing was a P-47 getting stuck "nose up" I think. What I'm talking about with my remarks is being able to pull up to the vertical, essentially hammerhead, take a shot accurately, and continue to be able to fly and fight effectively. As opposed to say spinning and losing thousands of feet of altitude.

What you described is possible even in most training GA aircraft. As long as the aircraft is unloaded when it stalls, it will simply nose down and regain airspeed. I've done hammerheads in aircraft you'd be surprised to hear could do them - there's nothing special about the maneuver. However, they are exponentially harder to do in AH, which is where I think it deviates from reality.

The spins you saw in the video were that - spins; where the aircraft was stalled, the wings were loaded and the ball wasn't centered - that will result in a spin. The spins in the video, while steeper and faster, looked similar to the spins in GA aircraft as well (except for the more exotic stuff, like inverted spins, which we don't try).

[Skyyr]

But is stall behavior that allows the "ruddering scissors" to replace the "rolling scissors" realistic?

Perhaps, but I think a bigger part of it is incorrect modelling of torque and spins. The torque almost "sticks" you in a nose-high position and allows you to hold it much longer. In every other sim I've played (and in real life), once you go from a stall to nose-low, you pick up speed quickly and you can't return to the same position without a severe horizontal offset and loss of altitude.

The torque and spin modeling seems to promote this rudder-stall environment.