Author Topic: This game is dead unless things change  (Read 10243 times)

Offline Arlo

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2014, 07:01:37 PM »
Two points however I think are valid. One is try to be nicer to the new guys and the other is the game could be simpler to learn.

I would like to politely address these points:

  1. While I agree that there's a fair amount of immaturity slung at each other in the arenas and on the forum, it is certainly not limited to new guys nor is that unique to this game community (I mighta said, at one time, that it's not as bad here as in any other game of similar or dissimilar genre - now I'm more prone to say it's no worse here than anywhere else). I find the opposite extreme in perception just as distasteful - which is a coddling, walking on eggshells environment akin to welcoming you into a church congregation (though some of us can see a correlation in the 'Tao of Dok' and religious fervor' - hope I remember to post a link that kinda explains that).

You're retired military, certainly you've been desensitized to most of the behavior (language, brash teasing, etc.) that you've witnessed/experienced. Some of it, which you may not be aware of yet, happens to actually be exchanges between actual game friends. They're comfortable with it. They don't mean anything by it. And yes, some of it will spill over to new players. Some of it is neither necessary nor impressive nor well thought out nor cool. There will be those less mature than you (no matter the relationship between your age and theirs). I'd like to give credit to you regarding your ability to handle it and to set the example no matter your time in game (others will gravitate to you for such and do their best to retain you in the community). You've barely met anyone .... and yes, the loudest noise does come from from the most attention-starved and frustrated of the lot. Get past that first layer and discover the core community.

2. Regarding 'simplifying the game.' This game may be challenging but it is not that difficult (the mechanics). I'm confident in saying that the vast majority of the AH community would find simplifying/dumbing the game down a bad thing. The hardest thing about the game is the competition which is ALSO considered a plus by this community). When I started enjoying online multi-player air combat games after discovering Air Warrior in the mid 90s) it was a combination of the challenge and the core community that won me over for good. It may take years to reach mediocrity in this game. But it's not about the top score. It's about the experience. You'll be a blessed man, trust me.

<S> (salute)

Welcome aboard. Stick around.  :salute :cheers: :)


And ... of course ... I did forget:

http://www.gonzoville.com/FILEZ/Tao_of_Dok.pdf
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 07:13:33 PM by Arlo »

Offline Aspen

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2014, 07:07:20 PM »
AH isn't for everyone.  I played for weeks before a glimmer of understanding took hold.  I ran into a helpful player that gave me the basics and was there to answer questions.  That made a big difference.  I completely understand how guys never get through the first part of the learning/acceptance curve.

If you see me online (AMAX) feel free to ask me questions.  I fly with guys that have been on here since the start and I've been around a while and we still ask some basic questions. Theres a lot to the game.  Many long time players still don't know how much ordinance it is to kill a hangar or a CV, how collisions work, how supplies need to be dropped, how to get a tail hook down, or how to get the extra flaps out on a P-38L, or (fill in the blank).

Communication can be tough in the MA.  Guys are busy fighting and sometimes a new name gets less attention. Its a video game, competitive and players have the shroud distance and anonymity. So as silly as it seems, you will see some immature behavior, purse fighting and just plain inappropriate communication from folks.  Many are probably decent enough in person, they just get a bit too attached to their pixels or for them some long distance chest thumping is a release valve.

Oh...and Knights probably aren't going to change much as far as winning wars.  Real estate trading can be fun, but like NASCAR, some of the best racing is way in the back of the pack away from the spotlight.

I will say that if you even think theres a little chance AH is a fit for you, stick it out a bit, make some friends and let yourself settle into the game a bit.  It can be incredibly fun and addicting.
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Offline Lazerr

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2014, 07:08:51 PM »
People who are rude to players trying to learn should be muted.  I will admit some squad members and myself have logged quite often lately due to boredom.

I hope something changes.  I think a free month should be provided after the update and included in advertising material.  What do I know though, I only market for a living.   :cheers:

Offline ImADot

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2014, 07:09:13 PM »

2) disable friendly dot locations over the entire country. Make it so friendly country mates are only displayed within a friendly enabled radar ring and above NOE level. Only squad mates and those active on vox/range channels would be displayed regardless of altitude and radar status. Friendly/Enemy dar bar would still function like normal.

This would be a good wish list item. It's already available in the arena settings, it's just not set that way in the mains.
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Offline Zodiac

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2014, 07:12:15 PM »
Yes, I understand. Give the game time. I have. Two weeks, which I believe was enough.

Two weeks is simply not enough time to learn the game, play it well, AND have fun at the same time.

 :huh


I'm all for helping out new players, that's how they get to be veteran players but I wouldn't agree with most of your suggestions that involve simplifying the game, however making training easier to find and make use of would be a definite plus.
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Offline Tinkles

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2014, 07:12:20 PM »
I agree, I think the community is quite harsh on newcomers. There are many who are nice and willing to help newcomers, and others who think,  "I had to learn it the hard way so you should too!"  It's all perspective, but I do agree with some of your viewpoints. I think HTC is addressing the lack of numbers issue by upgrading the terrain engine, and updating some of the planes. They are a small tight-knit team and want to keep it that way. While sometimes we think they are going slow and wish they were a bigger company, and I can understand why Dale wants to keep it a small company. Easier to manage that way.. to put it simply.

Sadly though, the community is something that no one can control. What I do when I play Aces High is look at it from their perspective (which is possible in some scenarios) and don't take anything personally.  If I kill someone in a plane and get yelled at for it, I think of the time that player invested to get to that point just to die by me. Sure, he knew the risks when he spawned/took off, but telling him that won't make the situation any better.  So I simply <S> (salute) him and keep playing.  Everyone gets hot under the collar at some point, egging them on or rubbing their face in "it" won't make them feel any better.

The way this community acts sometimes reminds me of the Call of Duty community.  Just look up some of the videos of Call of Duty trolls and stuff like that. How they talk to each other and purposefully egg each other on, provoking fights and ultimately destroying that gaming community. I stopped playing it years ago because of having to deal with people and situations like that.   Some who call this "X-Box Generation" act just like them  ;)

In Summary, yes I do understand where you are coming from. I can only tell you to ignore the nasty comments you get, and just play the way you want to play. I know it isn't right, and it isn't the 'preferable environment' that you would like to play in, but it isn't something that anyone can control. It's the individual's who comment like that, who can control it... and ultimately a show of character of that individual. So in the end, don't take anything like that personally, and focus on the good in the game. Those in the community can be temporary, and shouldn't reflect on the game itself. It's the quality of the game and it's developers that shows through the game, and that is what should be looked at.  :aok

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Offline Gray

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2014, 07:12:34 PM »
Hi Fork2,

    Respectfully, if this game took 2 weeks to learn, you would be gone in 2 months from boredom.   I've been a card carrying noob for about 7 years.  The complexity of the game has kept me engaged.   The childish junk on channel 200 can be detuned for my relief.
    Please ignore the whining children and enjoy the challenges.  Oh, get a wingman.

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Offline danny76

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2014, 07:16:41 PM »
I would like to politely address these points:

  1. While I agree that there's a fair amount of immaturity slung at each other in the arenas and on the forum, it is certainly not limited to new guys nor is that unique to this game community (I mighta said, at one time, that it's not as bad here as in any other game of similar or dissimilar genre - now I'm more prone to say it's no worse here than anywhere else). I find the opposite extreme in perception just as distasteful - which is a coddling, walking on eggshells environment akin to welcoming you into a church congregation (though some of us can see a correlation in the 'Tao of Dok' and religious fervor' - hope I remember to post a link that kinda explains that).

You're retired military, certainly you've been desensitized to most of the behavior (language, brash teasing, etc.) that you've witnessed/experienced. Some of it, which you may not be aware of yet, happens to actually be exchanges between actual game friends. They're comfortable with it. They don't mean anything by it. And yes, some of it will spill over to new players. Some of it is neither necessary nor impressive nor well thought out nor cool. There will be those less mature than you (no matter the relationship between your age and theirs). I'd like to give credit to you regarding your ability to handle it and to set the example no matter your time in game (others will gravitate to you for such and do their best to retain you in the community). You've barely met anyone .... and yes, the loudest noise does come from from the most attention-starved and frustrated of the lot. Get past that first layer and discover the core community.

2. Regarding 'simplifying the game.' This game may be challenging but it is not that difficult (the mechanics). I'm confident in saying that the vast majority of the AH community would find simplifying/dumbing the game down a bad thing. The hardest thing about the game is the competition which is ALSO considered a plus by this community). When I started enjoying online multi-player air combat games after discovering Air Warrior in the mid 90s) it was a combination of the challenge and the core community that won me over for good. It may take years to reach mediocrity in this game. But it's not about the top score. It's about the experience. You'll be a blessed man, trust me.

<S> (salute)

Welcome aboard. Stick around.  :salute :cheers: :)

Agree with this, also I would suggest that the perceived aversion to new guys is the fact that they seem intent on going their own way and refusing to listen.

e.g.

a.) How do I take off?
b.) How do I select bombs?
c.) Can I get a gunner? Anyone be my gunner? Gunner anyone? I need a gunner
d.) those long and drawn out conversations on Country or worse on Range between 2 new players making a strat run

best (or most tedious)of all

e.) constant running commentary of what they are doing, what they can see, that their bombs are gone, that they are short on ammo, that they are under attack, and that they are going down :bhead

I have pm'd guys in the past and seen large numbers of players advising them how to chat privately only to be utterly ignored.

AH would definately benefit IMHO from a simple and relatively short training schedule, prior to players being unleashed on the MA :old:


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Offline LCADolby

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2014, 07:18:44 PM »
A lot of AcesHigh is about determination, if you lack it you wont hack it.

For some of us, Aces High is a sport.
If this place got all Hello Kitty, touchy feely, luvvie dovey, to everyone not just new guys there'd be nothing worth flying around for.
It's bad enough the lack of aggression; you know those 1 pass run to ack P51s.

No competition.
No battle of wits, No battle of words, No Rumble (Ali-Foreman "banter" reference).
No guy you dislike that you'll give everything you've got to shoot him down mano a mano.  
No adrenaline rush. No sense of achievement.
Just people being nice, running away from each other.

HUMBUG. :old:
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Offline Brooke

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2014, 07:20:48 PM »
I'm 50 years old, retired military and have been playing video games when they could only be found in an arcade. or tell me you've been playing the game for a bazillion years and

I'm 50 years old, been playing video games since the beginning, have been playing on-line WWII aerial combat since 1988 (when Air Warrior started), and *I* say . . .
Welcome to the game, and I'm glad you are here with us!  Please stick it out for reasons given below.  :aok

Quote
I had been looking for a realistic war game, specifically a WWII aerial combat MMOG for a long time.

You will find kindred spirits here.

Quote
it's the rudeness of the people in the game and the still mind boggling complexity of the game...

Alas, it is true that some of the player base includes rude people who apparently are either dysfunctional or woefully inept in ability to interact with people (maybe never learned how to interact with people and so have a child's grasp of it even though they are adults).  They degrade the enjoyment for many and, on occasion, drive off good people.

But they aren't the entire player base.  It just seems like it because of the volume of verbal diarrhea they spew.  There are a lot of good people in the game, too.  Fortunately at least some folks are tough enough to ignore the jerks and not let it ruin their fun.  Who cares what jerks think, anyway?  The world has a lot of jerks in it.   There are even a lot of them out there who would like nothing better than to kill you or me, but we don't let it ruin our days.

Quote
There's fewer than 120 people logged most days in the US and fewer than 450 on the weekends...those are abysmal numbers for a mmog. If you still don't believe me then why is there no longer two late war arenas and rarely more than 10 people in the others?

AH and Air Warrior before it is a smaller market than for things like Eve Online or WOW.  What matters to a given player is not whether there are 120 or 450 or 4000 people playing overall, but what the fight is like around you.  In my opinion, a good fight is 4 on 4 or greater.  But even with more than 600 people on (or in events with a lot of people), you generally didn't get into fights larger than about 10 on 10 in your combat vicinity.  In Air Warrior, the player base was much smaller than current Aces High, and it still was a blast -- as long as you got several people fighting another several people.

Quote
A) Quit treating every new person as an enemy! So what if there are spys? You think the average person can't figure out there's a bombing mission on your starts after the first week? Get over yourselves and welcome the  newcomers.

Only dolts treat new players badly.  There are many people who value new players, answer their questions, etc.  I've seen it directly many times in the game.  But there are fluctuations in any statistic, and it could be that you have been unlucky enough in the times you play that you were one with just some of the jerks.

Quote
B) Invite the newcomers into your squads.

There are probably squads that do that.  Me, I'm not much of a squad player, as I like to log on whenever, play some wherever I want on the map, etc.  I don't get as much time to play these days as I would like, so I'm just on sporadically when I can.

Quote
The game is too complex, which really, REALLY, hampers playability.

It is a complex game, but it doesn't take that long to get up to speed once you know how to fly.  Here's a guide that covers some of the basics (although the guide is a bit out of date):
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/aces_high/startGuide/startGuide.html#_Toc91409091
  
Quote
 I) Persuade AH to create an automatic landing procedure.

A person can practice landing offline and be able to do it after a little bit of practice, but if they botch it and crash instead for a while, the consequence is that they get a little less in score than they otherwise would get.  But that only matters if you care about score, and a beginner isn't going to be a high scorer anyway.

Quote
II) Convince AH to publish game hints like "How to take a base" (the Knits could learn from that one!) or "Carrier tactics" or "Squadron Tactics" or "Hints on how to win a map"  "The importance of Strats" etc etc. Don't just assume people know it or will pick it up before they've decided to bail on a game that's taking their money, boring, and where everyone is a D*ck...

True, extra guides could be helpful.  Some of that is in the game's help file available from the home page:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/support/support-help

Quote
III) Convince AH to Update the plane characteristics! Having old info is a DEAD giveaway the game is losing membership. I almost didn't get the game after reading them. I knew they were last updated in like, what? 2007?

Not sure which characteristics you mean.

Quote
Last but not least listen to new people.

Some people do listen to others.   But keep in mind that there are people in the game who have their own opinions.  Some are former fighter pilots, airline pilots, air-transport pilots, people who have flown P-51 Mustangs, people who have piloted B-29's, people who have piloted B-24's and B-17's, people who are private pilots, people who are aerobatic pilots, people who have Ph.D.'s in physics and mathematical/computational modeling, people who are WWII historians, people who have read dozens of books on WWII aviation, even at least one WWII vet, people who have been playing this sort of sim for over 20 years, people who have worked in marketing, people who run small businesses, software engineers, etc., and they have their own thoughts based on their backgrounds and long experience of what works and what doesn't, what are improvements, what are not, etc.  There is a long history of debate over aspects of the game, the modeling, aircraft, and everything else, and folks tend to have their own strong opinions on things.

By the way, as a new player, I invite you to play in special events, which have a lot different style than the Main Arena and can provide a different style of fun.  I run "This Day in WWII" events and help put on "Scenarios".

This Day in WWII is this:
http://ahevents.org/events/this-day-in-wwii.html
The next one is on April 18.

Scenarios are this:
http://ahevents.org/events/scenarios/about-scenarios.html
The next one is in June.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 07:36:20 PM by Brooke »

Offline danny76

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2014, 07:26:51 PM »
A lot of AcesHigh is about determination, if you lack it you wont hack it.

For some of us, Aces High is a sport.
If this place got all Hello Kitty, touchy feely, luvvie dovey, to everyone not just new guys there'd be nothing worth flying around for.
It's bad enough the lack of aggression; you know those 1 pass run to ack P51s.

No competition.
No battle of wits, No battle of words, No Rumble (Ali-Foreman "banter" reference).
No guy you dislike that you'll give everything you've got to shoot him down mano a mano.  
No adrenaline rush. No sense of achievement.
Just people being nice, running away from each other.

HUMBUG. :old:


Agreed :old:

Also, is it Luvvie Dovey, or Lovey Dovey, Luvvie Duvvie, or Lovey Duvvie :headscratch:
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Offline Puma44

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2014, 07:42:09 PM »
I'm 50 years old, been playing video games since the beginning, have been playing on-line WWII aerial combat since 1988 (when Air Warrior started), and *I* say . . .
Welcome to the game, and I'm glad you are here with us!  Please stick it out for reasons given below.  :aok

You will find kindred spirits here.

Alas, it is true that some of the player base includes rude people who apparently are either dysfunctional or woefully inept in ability to interact with people (maybe never learned how to interact with people and so have a child's grasp of it even though they are adults).  They degrade the enjoyment for many and, on occasion, drive off good people.

But they aren't the entire player base.  It just seems like it because of the volume of verbal diarrhea they spew.  There are a lot of good people in the game, too.  Fortunately at least some folks are tough enough to ignore the jerks and not let it ruin their fun.  Who cares what jerks think, anyway?  The world has a lot of jerks in it.   There are even a lot of them out there who would like nothing better than to kill you or me, but we don't let it ruin our days.

AH and Air Warrior before it is a smaller market than for things like Eve Online or WOW.  What matters to a given player is not whether there are 120 or 450 or 4000 people playing overall, but what the fight is like around you.  In my opinion, a good fight is 4 on 4 or greater.  But even with more than 600 people on (or in events with a lot of people), you generally didn't get into fights larger than about 10 on 10 in your combat vicinity.  In Air Warrior, the player base was much smaller than current Aces High, and it still was a blast -- as long as you got several people fighting another several people.

Only dolts treat new players badly.  There are many people who value new players, answer their questions, etc.  I've seen it directly many times in the game.  But there are fluctuations in any statistic, and it could be that you have been unlucky enough in the times you play that you were one with just some of the jerks.

There are probably squads that do that.  Me, I'm not much of a squad player, as I like to log on whenever, play some wherever I want on the map, etc.  I don't get as much time to play these days as I would like, so I'm just on sporadically when I can.

It is a complex game, but it doesn't take that long to get up to speed once you know how to fly.  Here's a guide that covers some of the basics (although the guide is a bit out of date):
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/aces_high/startGuide/startGuide.html#_Toc91409091
  
A person can practice landing offline and be able to do it after a little bit of practice, but if they botch it and crash instead for a while, the consequence is that they get a little less in score than they otherwise would get.  But that only matters if you care about score, and a beginner isn't going to be a high scorer anyway.

True, extra guides could be helpful.  Some of that is in the game's help file available from the home page:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/support/support-help

Not sure which characteristics you mean.

Some people do listen to others.   But keep in mind that there are people in the game who have their own opinions.  Some are former fighter pilots, airline pilots, air-transport pilots, people who have flown P-51 Mustangs, people who have piloted B-29's, people who have piloted B-24's and B-17's, people who are private pilots, people who are aerobatic pilots, people who have Ph.D.'s in physics and mathematical/computational modeling, people who are WWII historians, people who have read dozens of books on WWII aviation, even at least one WWII vet, people who have been playing this sort of sim for over 20 years, people who have worked in marketing, people who run small businesses, software engineers, etc., and they have their own thoughts based on their backgrounds and long experience of what works and what doesn't, what are improvements, what are not, etc.  There is a long history of debate over aspects of the game, the modeling, aircraft, and everything else, and folks tend to have their own strong opinions on things.

By the way, as a new player, I invite you to play in special events, which have a lot different style than the Main Arena and can provide a different style of fun.  I run "This Day in WWII" events and help put on "Scenarios".

This Day in WWII is this:
http://ahevents.org/events/this-day-in-wwii.html
The next one is on April 18.

Scenarios are this:
http://ahevents.org/events/scenarios/about-scenarios.html
The next one is in June.

Very well put Brooke.  :aok

Fork, play the game on your terms, not of those based on ego, score, etc.  Play the game as complex or as simple as you choose.  Lots of options across the spectrum.  After all, it's just a game.  Thanks for your service!   :salute
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 07:43:49 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Zacherof

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2014, 07:44:39 PM »
When I had nothing to do as I kid I spent hours reading in game charts and information pages I printed out.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2014, 07:46:09 PM »
When I had nothing to do as I kid I spent hours reading in game charts and information pages I printed out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5kCq0AjYLI  :D

Offline Arlo

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Re: This game is dead unless things change
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2014, 07:50:25 PM »
I will say this much. Fork2 found this forum in 2 weeks time (which may not be the record but it sure ain't the norm).  :aok