Ethics of HO Shooting.....

[Wiley]

There is no difference between a head-on attack at a merge with similar aircraft and a head-on attack between a disadvantaged aircraft against a superior one - a head-on attack is a head-on attack. Any classification otherwise is an attempt to justify one's excuse of how they wish to fly.

It's identical to saying "But you TURNED your plane in the vertical when I didn't have E - that's not the same as turning horizontally!" It's an arbitrary excuse based on a lack of knowledge and experience in ACM.

No, consider a 190 is being roped by the Spit. He can't turn away, or he'll present his six to the enemy. At the same time, the he's saving as much E by trying to reduce the angle of his climb. The Spit is above, but slowing quickly. As the Spit's nose drops, the 190 has two choices - pull up and take a head-on shot, or avoid the shot and subsequently lose all positional advantage. The Spit will get hit either way.

This results in an unavoidable hot merge/remerge, as the shot is the only advantage the 190 has.

Actually, ok, I'll grant you that point.  What you're pretty much describing though is a rope that went wrong on both sides.  If things had gone according to plan for the 190 he'd have gotten the spit on the way up or the way over the top.  If things went according to plan for the spit the 190's not controllable enough to get the shot.

That's a fight though.  That's not jousting, which is what most people are whining about when they complain about the HO.

Wiley.

[Someguy63]

There is no difference between a head-on attack at a merge with similar aircraft and a head-on attack between a disadvantaged aircraft against a superior one - a head-on attack is a head-on attack. Any classification otherwise is an attempt to justify one's excuse of how they wish to fly. The only differing factor is the appropriateness of the attack based on established ACM doctrine.

It's identical to saying that turning in the vertical is "turning" because it isn't horizontal. Turning is turning is turning - how it's employed doesn't change what it is. Stating otherwise is an arbitrary excuse based on a lack of knowledge and experience in ACM.

No, consider a 190 is being roped by the Spit. He can't turn away, or he'll present his six to the enemy. At the same time, he's saving as much E by trying to reduce the angle of his climb. The Spit is above, but slowing quickly. As the Spit's nose drops, the 190 has two choices - pull up and take a head-on shot, or avoid the shot and subsequently lose all positional advantage. Given this scenario, the only wise choice for the 190 is a hot remerge. The Spit will get hit either way, so the wise Spit pilot will take the shot as well.

This results in an unavoidable hot merge/remerge, as the shot is the only advantage the 190 has.

As you say a HO is a HO then both are never unavoidable, simple.

The options to avoid are endless.

[Arlo]

*le sigh*

[Zerstorer]

It's not a duelist mentality, it's a sporting mentality.  If you view this game as a sport, you're more apt to forgo face shooting because it doesn't require any skill other than making sure your lead is under the target and not waiting too long to shoot.  Would you rather have an arena filled with sporting types who like to test their skill in maneuvering their aircraft to gain advantages or dice rollers who count their HO shot stats and have figured that they win more than they lose, so the results dictate they continue face shooting as a front line tactic to win?  There is nearly infinite replayability in this game with the former, and not so much with the latter. 

You say potato, I say 'potahto'.   Call it what you will, but the differences are the same...and you define the differences quite well.  Some do view this as a "sport", while others as a "simulation".  I tend to lean pretty heavily towards the later.

That brings up an interesting question:  If AH is, as you claim, a "sport"....how is it that rankings and statistics mean "nothing"?  

[Triton28]

Still, 1v1 there's no such thing as an unavoidable HO.

Wiley.

A plane with energy and/or position diving down on you in your front quarter doesn't leave you any other option.  You have to pull into him.  Now, I'll grant you that there's a theoretical sweet spot where you can avoid the HO, not get shot, and not be in a worse positional disadvantage than you were before, but that line is thin and not easy to walk when the rate of closure goes up.  

My position is the guy who dove on your front quarter is a ninny because he chose to attack in such a way as to force you to go nose to nose.  It's not wrong and it's not cheating, but it's not sporting.  In a video game like this, there's no reason to not be sporting unless you're afraid of what might happen if you are.  Fair enough I suppose, but it's lame any way you look at it.  

[Wiley]

A plane with energy and/or position diving down on you in your front quarter doesn't leave you any other option.  You have to pull into him.  Now, I'll grant you that there's a theoretical sweet spot where you can avoid the HO, not get shot, and not be in a worse positional disadvantage than you were before, but that line is thin and not easy to walk when the rate of closure goes up.  

My position is the guy who dove on your front quarter is a ninny because he chose to attack in such a way as to force you to go nose to nose.  It's not wrong and it's not cheating, but it's not sporting.  In a video game like this, there's no reason to not be sporting unless you're afraid of what might happen if you are.  Fair enough I suppose, but it's lame any way you look at it.  

I'm not seeing what you're describing.  Are you assuming the guy being dived in on has no E and is basically hanging there?  Again, that's the issue, not the orientation of his plane.

Wiley.

[Triton28]

You say potato, I say 'potahto'.   Call it what you will, but the differences are the same...and you define the differences quite well.  Some do view this as a "sport", while others as a "simulation".  I tend to lean pretty heavily towards the later.

That brings up an interesting question:  If AH is, as you claim, a "sport"....how is it that rankings and statistics mean "nothing"?  

If you view it as a simulation, why would you want to intentionally go nose to nose?  Your risk of virtually dying and not completing your virtual mission goes through the roof, so it's not a very safe way to play if surviving the sortie is what you're after.  I've noticed there are far less blatant HO's in FSO and scenarios, save for the really desperate guy who's being ganged or the injured plane who knows he won't make it back anyway, so I'm not really buying the "Guys ho'd in WWII, so as a true sim pilot, I will embrace the HO" stance it seems you're trying to take.  You can fly for immersion and the simulation without making the HO shot one of your favorite shots to take.

Score will mean what you want it to mean.  People that put no stock in score are the ones that have had their butt kicked at one time or another buy a guy who ranks 1238 but could likely take out 98% of the arena if the fights where on anything approaching even terms.  Some people just don't fly for score, and because I know that, I don't put much stock in how good someone is just because their rank is high.

[Triton28]

I'm not seeing what you're describing.  Are you assuming the guy being dived in on has no E and is basically hanging there?  Again, that's the issue, not the orientation of his plane.

Wiley.

When you're being dove on from directly above or from a high 12 O'clock, what's the best option you have?

[Stampf]

I'm not seeing what you're describing.  Are you assuming the guy being dived in on has no E and is basically hanging there?  Again, that's the issue, not the orientation of his plane.

Wiley.

Agree.  If you pull a guy up (drag) into what you hope will be a vertical reverse - and when you go nose down he still has enough E to get a nose to nose shot - well one of you misjudged the other's E state.

If you view it as a simulation, why would you want to intentionally go nose to nose?  Your risk of virtually dying and not completing your virtual mission goes through the roof, so it's not a very safe way to play if surviving the sortie is what you're after.  I've noticed there are far less blatant HO's in FSO and scenarios, save for the really desperate guy who's being ganged or the injured plane who knows he won't make it back anyway, so I'm not really buying the "Guys ho'd in WWII, so as a true sim pilot, I will embrace the HO" stance it seems you're trying to take.  You can fly for immersion and the simulation without making the HO shot one of your favorite shots to take.

Score will mean what you want it to mean.  People that put no stock in score are the ones that have had their butt kicked at one time or another buy a guy who ranks 1238 but could likely take out 98% of the arena if the fights where on anything approaching even terms.  Some people just don't fly for score, and because I know that, I don't put much stock in how good someone is just because their rank is high.

Werd.

In a one life event like FSO - to HO is to put yourself in another's gun sight by definition - AKA: risking an early departure from the event.

[Wiley]

When you're being dove on from directly above or from a high 12 O'clock, what's the best option you have?

Directly above is one of the worst situations you can be in IMO to start a fight, but for me I either try to set up a BRD or if it feels right I pull towards him but at an off angle to ruin his shot.  He's generally around 11 or 1 o'clock to me as he enters gunnery range, maybe a little wider angle depending.

Wiley.

[Zerstorer]

MA is like a bar fight.  Bar fights where guys punch it out 'till someone loses then go back inside and have a beer together can be great fun.  Bar fights where one guy pulls a knife and shanks a couple guys are totally different.

Nonsense.  

The only reason the two don't go have a beer together is that a few go away with hurt feelings because they put themselves into a situation where a faceshot was going to happen and/or were too slow to aviod one.  It would be great if everyone realized when they lose/die it their own fault.  Instead of using it as a learning oportunity some take it out on the other person who simply pointed out their error by pulling the trigger.

If you view it as a simulation, why would you want to intentionally go nose to nose?  Your risk of virtually dying and not completing your virtual mission goes through the roof, so it's not a very safe way to play if surviving the sortie is what you're after.  I've noticed there are far less blatant HO's in FSO and scenarios, save for the really desperate guy who's being ganged or the injured plane who knows he won't make it back anyway, so I'm not really buying the "Guys ho'd in WWII, so as a true sim pilot, I will embrace the HO" stance it seems you're trying to take.  You can fly for immersion and the simulation without making the HO shot one of your favorite shots to take.

Score will mean what you want it to mean.  People that put no stock in score are the ones that have had their butt kicked at one time or another buy a guy who ranks 1238 but could likely take out 98% of the arena if the fights where on anything approaching even terms.  Some people just don't fly for score, and because I know that, I don't put much stock in how good someone is just because their rank is high.

See above.

If the other person places themself in a situation where a front quarter shot is open, I take it.  I don't place myself purposefully into that situation, the other person placed themselves into that situation.

At the end of the day, YOU are responsible for what happens to YOU during an engagement.  Period.

FYI - I've specifically stated in the forum many times that a true HO (i.e. a nose to nose shot) is dumb to attempt as it's a crap shoot.  Speaking personally, I avoid these.  I'm specifically speaking about a off-nose front quarter shot, which many AH pilots equate as a 'HO' as well.

[Triton28]

FYI - I've specifically stated in the forum many times that a true HO (i.e. a nose to nose shot) is dumb to attempt as it's a crap shoot.  Speaking personally, I avoid these.  I'm specifically speaking about a off-nose front quarter shot, which many AH pilots equate as a 'HO' as well.

It's not much better to be pulling towards a nose to nose situation, watch the other pilot relax his turn or nose off slightly to avoid the HO, you fire, kill him, and then claim it wasn't a HO because his guns weren't on you.  This happens a lot, and while you're right, it doesn't meet the strict definition of a HO, it's equally lame.

[Wiley]

It's not much better to be pulling towards a nose to nose situation, watch the other pilot relax his turn or nose off slightly to avoid the HO, you fire, kill him, and then claim it wasn't a HO because his guns weren't on you.  This happens a lot, and while you're right, it doesn't meet the strict definition of a HO, it's equally lame.

What's lame is the guy whining because he flew across your gunsight and you had the unmitigated gall to pull the trigger.

Wiley.

[Triton28]

What's lame is the guy whining because he flew across your gunsight and you had the unmitigated gall to pull the trigger.

Wiley.

That isn't what I described.  Picture a two circle fight.  Both pilot pulling hard, Pilot A sees the HO coming and says, "I'm not gonna pipper this guy because I'd like to see this play out" and relaxes his turn.  Pilot B sees the HO coming and says, "Ehhh, I'll take my chances with the HO" and continues to pull.  Pilot B will likely have a front quarter shot without the other guy's guns on him.  It's not a HO, but it isn't sporting either.  When Pilot A fills up 200 with "you didn't have to HO", Pilot B can proudly say he did not HO, but he would have because that's what he was pulling for.  It's damn near the same thing.

[Wiley]

That isn't what I described.  Picture a two circle fight.  Both pilot pulling hard, Pilot A sees the HO coming and says, "I'm not gonna pipper this guy because I'd like to see this play out" and relaxes his turn.  Pilot B sees the HO coming and says, "Ehhh, I'll take my chances with the HO" and continues to pull.  Pilot B will likely have a front quarter shot without the other guy's guns on him.  It's not a HO, but it sporting either.  When Pilot A fills up 200 with "you didn't have to HO", Pilot B can proudly say he did not HO, but he would have because that's what he was pulling for.  It's damn near the same thing.

Yup.  He chose to pull to put himself in front of the opponent's guns instead of avoiding the vector that put him there.  It's no different than if the two of them were at off angles and he flew in front of the opponent.  He could have picked a line that doesn't put him in front of the other guy's guns.  The fact that they were nose to nose at that moment is meaningless.  He flew in front of the other guy's guns, but because of his warped worldview, screamed 'HOME FREE!' and expected the other guy not to fire.

Putting your plane where it can be shot by the enemy is commonly called 'losing the fight.'

Wiley.