Dedicated Furball fields in every MA arena?

[bustr]

This is what happens when Hitech leaves a power vacuum by not defining combat or fun. Lords of the Flys emerge to define it, defend it, and impose it on the rest, who will naturally resist. Then again, it keeps the light bill paid by relying on human nature.

Once the effort is made to define and defend. It is the only reality that Lords of the Flys will accept as the definition of what this game "is". It does add to the flavor of the offering. Still, because they have now projected "themselves" as that reality upon the community, any dissent is perceived as a very personal real world affront to themselves.

You cannot win with Dmon and several others I suspect over this issue. I will venture our game is not the only venue they walk around in with this exposed nerve for the world to bump into, whether the world wants to or not. 

[ink]

This is what happens when Hitech leaves a power vacuum by not defining combat or fun. Lords of the Flys emerge to define it, defend it, and impose it on the rest, who will naturally resist. Then again, it keeps the light bill paid by relying on human nature.

Once the effort is made to define and defend. It is the only reality that Lords of the Flys will accept as the definition of what this game "is". It does add to the flavor of the offering. Still, because they have now projected "themselves" as that reality upon the community, any dissent is perceived as a very personal real world affront to themselves.

You cannot win with Dmon and several others I suspect over this issue. I will venture our game is not the only venue they walk around in with this exposed nerve for the world to bump into, whether the world wants to or not.

some of the stuff you post..is just....way out there man....I cant imagine what it is to have that brain of yours....

glad I am a simple man.

[Lusche]

well seeings how building's...don't move and try to get out of the way of your bombs....


the moment they do....they will be correct....

just because one can have an opinion...does not make it correct....

but I would be more then willing to read how bombing and taking towns and winning the war is different each map....

Reducing everything outside of a 1v1 dogfight or 'pure' furballs to "bombing of buildings" is cheap and largely incorrect. For the record, I have hundreds of kills (and deaths!) in bombers just because I tried to bomb .... buildings.

In many instances this involves combat on some kind. This meta game provides a plethora of battle situations that are more varied than a 'pure furball' because of all the factors, planes, vehicles and game mechanisms involved.

Speaking personally, this is what kept me here after the intial period. Furballing was fun in the beginning, but I would have been bored to death after a year (at most). Which I actually was.
The 'war' meta game did provide me with more variety in combat and tactics on top of the doghfighing core this game has. I would never ever have lasted for 10 years if AH was only that and no war. And I don't even really play to 'win' that one.

It's fine if you have found some niche, (I had one too before it was mostly taken away), but it smacks of hubris to look down on everyone not having "seen the truth" and playing something differently.

[Lusche]

Another thing... threads like this try to keep up the myth that AH players are either furballer or toolshedding "war gamers".

While indeed there are much less furballers than 'war gamers' in AH, many, if not most players are neither. Most are probably playing the war game to some extent, but do much about everything when it's fun for them at any given moment and don't care much about the ideological battles of the AH forum. They switch forth and back between different modes of playing depending on mood, mapo situation, presence of squaddies and time at hand.

[The Fugitive]

The quote even contradicts Hitechs own opinion (no offense) to only one part of the issue, by not being able to change sides every 12 hours.  What is the point of that other than to keep teams situated on a war based strategy. Or you are taking his words out of context, it is probably not even about FI.   
Fun is the main option but the game dynamic strategy is the other option.

Explain to me what would happen when team A completely dominates team B and C in the furball island. All those other players are going to be sitting in the tower complaining about hoards and pickers, while also not going to another field to benefit any part of the strategize war effort because there will be no fights there either. They will sit in the tower and still be bored while not even unknowingly help the team by upping from another base and killing a bomber raid, for example.

Y'all only see the small light to the issue,  Not the actual problem that persist to the reason why fights have been so much smaller. IE, the length of the base distance. I don't really understand why many of you wouldn't agree with me besides Oldman. Your furballs would be extravagant and you would be apart of the MA strategy as a whole thereby creating a fun competitive atmosphere for all styles of fighting.

I don't agree with this, nor do I agree with the idea of "furball island" will help. The issue we face is game play differeances.

Years ago we played and each of the 2 or 3 maps we had were furball maps. That is pretty much what we all did. It is the reason we joined the game whether we started here or came in from Air Warriors, or Warbids. We were all pretending to be WWII fighter pilots and we were out to save the country! For years it was like this and all was good.

Then HTC added bombers and towns and strats and GVs and all these other goodies so we could fight many other ways, and we did! And all was good. Then came the "win the war". No instead of just squads going head to head they was a goal added on. Never mind just capturing the base, WIN THE WAR! Many people grasped at this new activity and the split between the furballers and the land grabbers had begun. And so the first major shift in game play had begun.

Soon as more people joined to play most found it easier to run with the land grabbers as every one knows to be above average in a fighter takes time and practice. This is about the time the donut map was removed. Huge squads like the BOPS and the LCA were rolling base after base with all their little minions ( there weren't all yellow back then, some actual fought  ) There were fights, but they were getting to be less and less furbals as the captures moved on and a furball takes a certain amount of players and time to really get rolling and self sustaining. Before long players were looking for quicker ways to capture bases. They found that bringing a bunch of bombs on fighters was much faster, faster yet was not even bothering to climb! And another shift in game play had begun..... Massive never ending NOEs to bring forth the "Wack a Mole" style of play.

HTC stepped in, ( I always though one of the higher up staff jumped on a have a few fun fights one weekend and all they could do was follow the wack a mole routine, and they were not happy) Instant change, dar was smacked down into the weeds and expanded. You couldn't even lift from your base with out setting off the flashing on the next base over! LOL!!! No more NOEs! Calmer heads prevailed and the radar was adjusted to what we have now. But the shift in game play continued toward less fighting. After all fighting your way through defenders takes time and then it takes too long to win the war.

So todays players avoid fighting as much as they can. NOE, hordes, bomb and bail, lawndart, and if defenders show up, call it quits on that run and move to the other front to see if you can grab one there before someone ups. Moving bases closer won't change the way players play the game. Having a furball island might be fun for some of us old timers, but it becomes very predictable. Certain players will circle above to pick, others will blow through with big cannons to blast anything that crosses their path until they get picked or run home to land those 2-3-4 kills.

I hope eventually that game play turns back toward fighting. I don't care if people like to GV, bomb, take bases, win the war. I'd just like to see them fight for it is all.   

[DmonSlyr]

Where did I discredit your opinion? You went off the rails when you first thought Toad was attacking you. People are expressing opinions that are different than yours.  Accept the fact that people often disagree. It's not a contest. Nobody is going to change their minds because you keep arguing that you're right and everybody else is wrong. If you think your position is obviously correct then time will tell and save you the trouble.

My bad, I meant to use " you" in general terms not specifically you, FLS. I'm simply outlinning the reasons why I think it is a bad idea. I've given more than enough educated reasonings as to why and have brought in better solutions to the problem that would make everyone happy. The only thing they can say is "I disagree" and then say something stupid about me. That is not how a discussion works. If they say "I disagree" then discredit my opinion, I'd personally like to know why, if you don't. If they don't say why, then I'll give them the all reason why they should consider my opinion, Ie achievements, skill, and game understanding in order for them to comprehend why I think that way.

[waystin2]

Reducing everything outside of a 1v1 dogfight or 'pure' furballs to "bombing of buildings" is cheap and largely incorrect. For the record, I have hundreds of kills (and deaths!) in bombers just because I tried to bomb .... buildings.

In many instances this involves combat on some kind. This meta game provides a plethora of battle situations that are more varied than a 'pure furball' because of all the factors, planes, vehicles and game mechanisms involved.

Speaking personally, this is what kept me here after the intial period. Furballing was fun in the beginning, but I would have been bored to death after a year (at most). Which I actually was.
The 'war' meta game did provide me with more variety in combat and tactics on top of the doghfighing core this game has. I would never ever have lasted for 10 years if AH was only that and no war. And I don't even really play to 'win' that one.

It's fine if you have found some niche, (I had one too before it was mostly taken away), but it smacks of hubris to look down on everyone not having "seen the truth" and playing something differently.

Absolutely the same for me.  I am a Fur-taker.   

[ink]

Another thing... threads like this try to keep up the myth that AH players are either furballer or toolshedding "war gamers".

While indeed there are much less furballers than 'war gamers' in AH, many, if not most players are neither. Most are probably playing the war game to some extent, but do much about everything when it's fun for them at any given moment and don't care much about the ideological battles of the AH forum. They switch forth and back between different modes of playing depending on mood, mapo situation, presence of squaddies and time at hand.

this I completely disagree with.... except the start of second line..

you say what I say then say something totally different.

yes there are those that do both...the majority are war winners....there is no question.

Reducing everything outside of a 1v1 dogfight or 'pure' furballs to "bombing of buildings" is cheap and largely incorrect. For the record, I have hundreds of kills (and deaths!) in bombers just because I tried to bomb .... buildings.

In many instances this involves combat on some kind. This meta game provides a plethora of battle situations that are more varied than a 'pure furball' because of all the factors, planes, vehicles and game mechanisms involved.

Speaking personally, this is what kept me here after the intial period. Furballing was fun in the beginning, but I would have been bored to death after a year (at most). Which I actually was.
The 'war' meta game did provide me with more variety in combat and tactics on top of the doghfighing core this game has. I would never ever have lasted for 10 years if AH was only that and no war. And I don't even really play to 'win' that one.

It's fine if you have found some niche, (I had one too before it was mostly taken away), but it smacks of hubris to look down on everyone not having "seen the truth" and playing something differently.

I disagree once again...

it is not "largely incorrect".... dropping bombs is exactly what it takes to "win the war"

maybe there is another thing that you need to do besides the GVing...attacking towns...

but once again it all comes down to dropping bombs/throwing rounds and destroying STATIONARY targets...and as far as GVing goes...spawn camping at its finest.

fighting off fighters...is the only thing that is or may be different,  that can not be comparable to fighting enemy bandits while in fighters.





and I will never tell someone how to play this game except they should find their fun.

I do call people on their bullcrap though and some just cant handle that.

[bustr]

Sadly like comedy, I don't have to make any of this stuff up.

This post and responses read like the script for Japanese animation series where everyone you run into is a master of something they seem to find every excuse possible to loudly announce. Dangling big toe attack, rising pinky finger defense, or belching rear wind ultimate fist blast. All competing as the ultimate school of killing gerbils in Mongolia, or some nonsense like that.

But, they all defend theirs to the death against all perceived attempts to insult their gerbil hood's ultimate answer of the universe at the last episode of the series. Or something like that. Then along comes season two where a new crop of gerbil killers fight over the same thing wearing different pajamas and an uglier bad guy.

For good measure at least one of the first season's now old guys is still defending the gerbil fu secret of the universe along side of the new hot item young killer of Mongolian gerbils.

Get the point of why not defining combat or fun is keeping the light bill paid?

[Lusche]

it is not "largely incorrect".... dropping bombs is exactly what it takes to "win the war"

maybe there is another thing that you need to do besides the GVing...attacking towns...

but once again it all comes down to dropping bombs/throwing rounds and destroying STATIONARY targets...and as far as GVing goes...spawn camping at its finest.

fighting off fighters...is the only thing that is or may be different,  that can not be comparable to fighting enemy bandits while in fighters.

Bombers attack towns.
Fighters attack bombers.
Escorts (or fighter on a sweep) attack those in return.
And so on.

In the end, you have buffs vs fighters, fighters vs fighter, planes vs gv, gv vs gv and so on. This is called variety. And tactics are necessary as well as a more rounded skillset.
All the things that i need to do in a furball are there, and then some on top. I end up being in many more differing tactical situations (just think of the different altitudes alone), so much more to know and to keep in mind beyond the basic ACM core, that it kept me here for so many years.
If AH just were about "bombing buildings" I'd been gone years ago.
If AH just were about furballing, I would have been gone years ago as well.

Only the battles kept me past my first year or so.

[DmonSlyr]

Sadly like comedy, I don't have to make any of this stuff up.

This post and responses read like the script for Japanese animation series where everyone you run into is a master of something they seem to find every excuse possible to loudly announce. Dangling big toe attack, rising pinky finger defense, or belching rear wind ultimate fist blast. All competing as the ultimate school of killing gerbils in Mongolia, or some nonsense like that.

But, they all defend theirs to the death against all perceived attempts to insult their gerbil hood's ultimate answer of the universe at the last episode of the series. Or something like that. Then along comes season two where a new crop of gerbil killers fight over the same thing wearing different pajamas and an uglier bad guy.

For good measure at least one of the first season's now old guys is still defending the gerbil fu secret of the universe along side of the new hot item young killer of Mongolian gerbils.

Get the point of why not defining combat or fun is keeping the light bill paid?

You are missing my point. I'm not telling anyone how to play the game. I have given responses to help people become better at the game and to utilize different aspects that game offers, instead of always thinking the MA has to change.

It is not like " I can't ever win" a discussion. But besides fugitive who gave a clear rebuttle most don't understand what I've been trying to imply. However, I think shorter bases would add more to the fight. The only way to stop the base taking horde is to stop it with another hoard from a team that feels like upping to stop them. That is how furballs start. There would be soo much more action all across the map, as engagements would be quicker and more easily accessible. That is all I'm saying and it would make the overall fight better all around instead of limiting part of the map to specific categories.

[Toad]

This horse is pretty well beaten. I'll close out with a few thoughts.

1. I respect the achievement of a KOTH title. It shows mastery of the fighter aircraft in the game. Congratulations on winning that.

2. Nonetheless, I don't think that winning KOTH makes a person's gameplay opinions any more or any less valid than anyone else that has played for a while. Opinions are like…..

3. It's true I don't have the skills I used to have. I'm a damn sight older, my vision isn't as good and my reflexes have slowed. Haven't really played steady in many years and I've forgotten a lot of what I once knew about stall fighting. Doesn't mean I don't still enjoy playing. The was a time when I could give just about anyone a good fight. Never cared for score. Usually just augured when out of gas or bullets.

4. I don't think anyone who hasn't played the Donut map can imagine how the TT and FT fit right into that map and made pretty much everyone happy. No need for a DA when it was up. The community was all in one place.

5. I seriously doubt HT will ever move the bases closer together. I base that opinion on a long face to face breakfast Rude and I had with HT many, many years ago. We discussed moving bases closer, installing fighter towns, making base capture easier. HT disagreed with all those ideas, putting forth his ideas on game theory. I don't think he's changed his mind over the years.

6. On base capture, one thing I truly believe is that making base capture continually more difficult led directly to the hordes. IMO, it seriously hurt gameplay. Early on 3-4 skilled people could de-ack and take a base. The hitch was that if you didn't then defend it….3-4 skilled people would take it right back. So there was a lot of back and forth base taking which was a lot of….fighting and a lot of….fun. A couple of good jabos and a goon could do it. Of course, this really eliminated a true need for heavy buffs, so bases got hardened to keep them happy. More ack, more buildings, towns/map rooms, bigger towns, etc. just to give buffing meaning. The result was the horde. The problem is that it then pretty much takes a horde to get it back. Imagine if it were the old bases. The horde could roll on thru taking bases left and right. Then groups of 3-4 people could trail them and take the bases right back UNLESS the horde broke up to defend their conquests. In short: hard base taking will forever engender the horde.

7. Lastly, I expect no changes to the MA game with the next phase of AH now in late Alpha. I doubt HTC will spend time on this old gray mare while their new filly is about to bust out of the gate. Maybe after the new one is up and running with no problems HTC will revisit this MA stuff but I doubt it. I suspect he'll just let this linger until it dies of old age.

Cyas up there.

[DmonSlyr]

This horse is pretty well beaten. I'll close out with a few thoughts.

1. I respect the achievement of a KOTH title. It shows mastery of the fighter aircraft in the game. Congratulations on winning that.

2. Nonetheless, I don't think that winning KOTH makes a person's gameplay opinions any more or any less valid than anyone else that has played for a while. Opinions are like…..

3. It's true I don't have the skills I used to have. I'm a damn sight older, my vision isn't as good and my reflexes have slowed. Haven't really played steady in many years and I've forgotten a lot of what I once knew about stall fighting. Doesn't mean I don't still enjoy playing. The was a time when I could give just about anyone a good fight. Never cared for score. Usually just augured when out of gas or bullets.

4. I don't think anyone who hasn't played the Donut map can imagine how the TT and FT fit right into that map and made pretty much everyone happy. No need for a DA when it was up. The community was all in one place.

5. I seriously doubt HT will ever move the bases closer together. I base that opinion on a long face to face breakfast Rude and I had with HT many, many years ago. We discussed moving bases closer, installing fighter towns, making base capture easier. HT disagreed with all those ideas, putting forth his ideas on game theory. I don't think he's changed his mind over the years.

6. On base capture, one thing I truly believe is that making base capture continually more difficult led directly to the hordes. IMO, it seriously hurt gameplay. Early on 3-4 skilled people could de-ack and take a base. The hitch was that if you didn't then defend it….3-4 skilled people would take it right back. So there was a lot of back and forth base taking which was a lot of….fighting and a lot of….fun. A couple of good jabos and a goon could do it. Of course, this really eliminated a true need for heavy buffs, so bases got hardened to keep them happy. More ack, more buildings, towns/map rooms, bigger towns, etc. just to give buffing meaning. The result was the horde. The problem is that it then pretty much takes a horde to get it back. Imagine if it were the old bases. The horde could roll on thru taking bases left and right. Then groups of 3-4 people could trail them and take the bases right back UNLESS the horde broke up to defend their conquests. In short: hard base taking will forever engender the horde.

7. Lastly, I expect no changes to the MA game with the next phase of AH now in late Alpha. I doubt HTC will spend time on this old gray mare while their new filly is about to bust out of the gate. Maybe after the new one is up and running with no problems HTC will revisit this MA stuff but I doubt it. I suspect he'll just let this linger until it dies of old age.

Cyas up there.

Thank you toad.

I think everything you wrote here is pretty solid.

That is a good idea about hoards being so prevelant because of base strength. I agree to that the extra AAA and all that makes it very difficult for even a small squad to attempt a base capture. With a lot of people on it is especially difficult to capture the base without having a big mission to literally shut everything down along with the base behind it.

I also think you are right that hitech most likely will not change any of the structure. That is either the most brilliant or craziest thing to do, it keeps the game exact- to a point. Putting the bases closer together or adding a FI or eliminating the 12 hour rule would not make a me or a lot of people stop playing, that is for sure. But I swear to god if he touches that damn AAA flak gun again 
with more power I'm done!!!

I think it is unforutunate we can't have many more players on on each of these different arenas because they are actually a lot of fun. Just 10 people in the AvA with some fun planes is sooo much fun, along with great practice, and it doesn't take 30 minutes to get to the fight.

I just wanted to present to the new guy that there are other places in AH that can create furballs, which are a lot of fun, 10-15 people on a smog 8 map ( popular H2H map) is seriously some of the best fun you'll have. I do miss that aspect of the game. Sometimes the MA really is boring and there is nothing to do that you want to waist time doing. IMO this is chance to hopefully dive into another room if there are people in there.

I talk about player level skill ability so much because it really does make a difference in fighter ability, furball success, and understanding of plane choice that can make furballing more or less difficult. Being in a huge furball is a lot of fun, but flying a more difficult plane like the p47D11 compared to a tempest or spit8 can make a huge difference on the amount of kills and amount if time you stay alive longer. For many new sticks there is just so much to learn. I could see why they want a FI because the map just looks soo large to them, with little knowledge to of the game to begin with. That is why H2H sorta saved me. But once they learn the game a little better, finding furball fights and winning them becomes a lot easier. Learning and becoming a better fighter will make a tremendous amount of difference to their ides of furballs, in that they can predict the fights, stay alive, get more kills,  and have a better understanding of SA, which is incredibly important in furballs. I was using the example that based on my skill level and style of play I can rack up 3-8 kills whenever I up, if I'm lucky, and this is normally in a furball. From this I mean that there are furballs going on and that I can evaluate whether I think it will be a fun fight, I'll find 6-7 con's around and I know how to engage them. This makes a huge difference in my perception of the furball compared to a new players. That is what I was trying to say. That there are furballs and big fights, you just have to identify them. Again, sometimes there isn't, and I'll go and check out the DA.

I am very excited with the new AH coming soon. While I don't want them to change the game a lot. I hope it will be top notch with exciting features, maybe even some we have all mentioned, and hopefully some new maps. I am not opposed to putting a FI in a few maps on the rotation to see how it works out, but hopefully we can get a lot more people to play so that the whole game will still have meaning to the every style of player in the arena for a fun war aspect.

[ink]

Bombers attack towns.
Fighters attack bombers.
Escorts (or fighter on a sweep) attack those in return.
And so on.

In the end, you have buffs vs fighters, fighters vs fighter, planes vs gv, gv vs gv and so on. This is called variety. And tactics are necessary as well as a more rounded skillset.
All the things that i need to do in a furball are there, and then some on top. I end up being in many more differing tactical situations (just think of the different altitudes alone), so much more to know and to keep in mind beyond the basic ACM core, that it kept me here for so many years.
If AH just were about "bombing buildings" I'd been gone years ago.
If AH just were about furballing, I would have been gone years ago as well.

Only the battles kept me past my first year or so.

I hear ya, and understand......

I am just totally different and see the game in a totally different light so to speak.


only thing I ever cared about in game is fighters and fighting against odds......dropping bombs... GVing....ehh no thank you.

if one had to play the full game...the way you do I would have left a long time ago.

[Bruv119]

so what I took from this thread is that the Muppets need to start faking genuine base captures  and start engineering an enemy response to create and sustain healthy furballs at any base they choose.  Then HTC won't have to change anything.

If the enemy start leaving the field thinking it is safe, then renew another folly attack until the enemy captures the base your upping from, but them being the manly men they are they should be able to defend ok and in turn get all the action they crave.   

If they can't shoot down the bombers or the GV's attacking them then recruit some dudes as a kind of RAF regiment to protect their home field.