Biggest "crutch" plane of AH

[JunkyII]

The 84 completely dominates the Spit IX below 11k, and is on par with it up to ~16k. It isn't even funny how easy-mode it is. If you do an E/M diagram overlay of the Ki-84 against all of the Spits, it's almost a mirror of the Spit-XVI.

I agree on the K-4, however, as it will dominate the Spit IX at any altitude below 20k.

I would agree that both planes are better rides(he's not good enough in a K4 to kill me in a spit 9) and I'd rather be in each but a spit 9 can hang with either in a 1v1 at normal MA alts.....both can just extend away like a P51 and survive, but the Spit 9 is a killer, just like a 8 or 16(not as much but still is good)

[Changeup]

I'll take you up on that....but your giving yourself a lot of credit....so when I see you on next time, don't back down . I truly believe the K4 and KI84s advantage in climb rate isn't enough to give them an incredible advantage over a Spit 9 in a below 10K fight, the fight will still end up in a position where the KI or K4 have to rope the Spit 9 with a very small E advantage at low speed(Vertical scissors) not many players have great timing there, they pull too early making it an easy shot....or come over too late missing the rope which in turn, normally results in the lower con with a shot opportunity),....spit 5 on the other hand....not as hard to rope.

Oh and I know your going to say something about having a huge advantage in the initial...maybe a bit but the zoom climbs of all three of these planes is very similar, and the spit will flat turn at the top better then both, so I will be fine.

1.  You need to read what I typed initially again.  If you read me fighting you, you missed it badly.  However, you know me much better than that Junky.  I go, I don't believe in excuses. 

2.  With indifference to Skyyrs performance charts, most fights in the rarely start at alts of those plane's exceptional performance envelopes and quickly devolve below them.  I would take my chances in a IX against any of them in the MA because eventually they will come down after me...they always do. 

[Skyyr]

I'm sorry but what is an E/M diagram.

E/M = Energy Maneuverability Diagram

It's the diagram that you use to get a full understanding of an aircraft's performance limitations. More importantly, however, you can overlay two aircraft's E/M diagrams and derive instantly which tactics can be used at which altitudes to beat it. There's zero guesswork.

We don't have these in AH, just simple line graphs that don't really tell us much except absolute values.

They look something like this:

[JunkyII]

I still don't agree, a better test would be me in a Spit 9 vs Krupnski....then Me in a K4 vs Krup in a K4.

I think the end result will surprise people.

[Zimme83]

Perhaps, but using an extreme example of poor airspeed and applying it as the rule is relatively disingenuous.

Even then, in the end, the capabilities of the aircraft rely on ACM, which is derived from performance obtained from each aircraft's E/M diagram (I really wish HTC would include these in the game). A slow aircraft has inherent advantages that fast aircraft do not, and vice-versa. Just because fast aircraft can disengage more easily than slower aircraft does not give them an overall advantage in general, it's just a different, single type of advantage.

A good analogue to this is human intelligence. We can measure this through various testing and personality/cognitive profiles. We can also measure other individual characteristics, such as emotional quotient (EQ), by testing in a similar manner. The end result is that some people are more intelligent, some are more emotionally capable, etc.

The interesting thing, however, is that no one wants to be the "dumb" (or less-smart) one, as if that matters more than anything else. Many people are fine being more (or less) athletic, delegative, efficient, etc. If you tell them "the guy next to you is more athletic," few people would care. However, show (or tell) someone that they're not as smart as the guy next to them, and typically it's either challenged or met with resistance and/or hostility. However, it's objectively the same as any other measured trait. People tend to overvalue intelligence without understanding it's worthless without the ability to put forth the effort to make use of it, the determination to follow through with it, etc. Alone and by itself, intelligence is useless.

Players in AH (and it seems almost exclusively limited to AH) seem to treat aircraft airspeed in the same manner. It's an inherent trait to every aircraft, it's how the aircraft flies. If you don't like the airspeed advantage another plane has, either fly a similar plane, or learn to deal with it. Complaining about it is akin to complaining that the smart guy in class got a better score than you... followed by mocking his ability because you can't perform at his level (when you could have easily studied yourself... or chosen the same plane).

Typically, this is understood universally by the hardcore/enthusiast sim crowd, as it's the integral part of what makes ACM and WWII air combat varied. For whatever reason, however, the understanding (and acceptance) of this by this community is almost non-existent. Sadly ironic, as it's a major deterrent to anyone considering AH for realistic WWII dogfighting (as evident when compared to the number of players online at any moment across the various IL2 series, DCS, etc.).

None of this was aimed at you, by the way Zimme, it just created a nice segue.

When flying a slow plane u re most of the time starting in a disadvantage position so they are really good for learning how to manage and reverse E. Im no expert either but the average pilot in AH makes so many misstakes in combat that they can be beaten on a regular basis even if u are in a Brewster and meet them 1v1.

But i still claims that speed is the single most important factor - if u know what u are doing. If u dont u die no matter what plane u are flying.

[Changeup]

I still don't agree, a better test would be me in a Spit 9 vs Krupnski....then Me in a K4 vs Krup in a K4.

I think the end result will surprise people.

A better test that you vs you?  How?  You aren't nearly as good as Krup, no offense.

[Skyyr]

When flying a slow plane u re most of the time starting in a disadvantage position so they are really good for learning how to manage and reverse E. Im no expert either but the average pilot in AH makes so many misstakes in combat that they can be beaten on a regular basis even if u are in a Brewster and meet them 1v1.

But i still claims that speed is the single most important factor - if u know what u are doing. If u dont u die no matter what plane u are flying.

And there's the flaw: flying slow is not in any way an inherent disadvantage. Flying slow is only a disadvantage when the opponent is forcing an energy fight in the vertical (or if you're trying to escape a fight, but that's not really the context here).

The easiest way to kill aircraft that run (such as the P-51, Me 262, D9, etc.) is to get in front of them and allow yourself to be slightly slower.

Again, people say the word "slow/slower" without understanding it's not really a negative attribute. It's only a negative drawback in a specific set of scenarios, much like not being able to turn is a drawback only in very specific scenarios.

I'd rather have an LA-7 or D9 all day long instead of a Me 262, despite the fact that the 262 is faster. Why? Because despite being slower, they're more versatile.

[Skyyr]

A better test that you vs you?  How?  You aren't nearly as good as Krup, no offense.

In all fairness, you said you could beat him without him gaining a single kill. You would have to prove this statement first before you'd be able to prove your ability to assess the skills of other pilots.

[Zimme83]

And there's the flaw: flying slow is not in any way an inherent disadvantage. Flying slow is only a disadvantage when the opponent is forcing an energy fight in the vertical (or if you're trying to escape a fight, but that's not really the context here).

The easiest way to kill aircraft that run (such as the P-51, Me 262, D9, etc.) is to get in front of them and allow yourself to be slightly slower.

Again, people say the word "slow/slower" without understanding it's not really a negative attribute. It's only a negative drawback in a specific set of scenarios, much like not being able to turn is a drawback only in very specific scenarios.

I'd rather have an LA-7 or D9 all day long instead of a Me 262, despite the fact that the 262 is faster. Why? Because despite being slower, they're more versatile.

Easiest way is to avoid the snapshots when they dive while trying to gain som alt until they have run out of E, a lot of times they end up hanging in the prop 200 yards in front of u. People dont realize how much e they bleed by pulling out of a dive at 6g.

[Changeup]

In all fairness, you said you could beat him without him gaining a single kill. You would have to prove this statement first before you'd be able to prove your ability to assess the skills of other pilots.

Please quote where I said that.  I think you read it how he did.  That's not what I said.

Edit: and Junky knows he's not better than Krup as does virtually everyone in here that's fought him lol, right? 

[Skyyr]

Please quote where I said that.  I think you read it how he did.  That's not what I said.

Junky, you know better than this.  This is only true if the K4 and 84 drivers have no idea what they're doing.  If you fought you in a IX vs a K4 the IX-you wouldn't win one fight. 

There were several typos, so it read like you were challenging him. If not, I'm assuming you meant "if you fought yourself" (not you)?

Also, if he fought himself, by definition he would win 100% of the time; so the above quote is false.

[Changeup]

There were several typos, so it read like you were challenging him. If not, I'm assuming you meant "if you fought yourself" (not you)?

Also, if he fought himself, by definition he would win 100% of the time; so the above quote is false.

Yes, you read it wrong and I accept your apology no matter how indirect it is. 

[Skyyr]

Yes, you read it wrong and I accept your apology no matter how indirect it is. 

And I forgive you for making a false statement.

[Changeup]

And I forgive you for making a false statement.

Fair enough. 

[Skyyr]

Edit: and Junky knows he's not better than Krup as does virtually everyone in here that's fought him lol, right? 

If that's an implication that Junky is terribly worse than Krup, I'd disagree. I'd give Krup the overall edge, but not by a landslide or anything; especially when not fighting in 109's.

Thing is, Junky still has room to grow, whereas Krup is pretty much at the limit of what that style of flight is capable of. Either way, I'd be careful about making absolute statements, they generally come back to bite you in the butt.