Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?

[bustr]

The few times I fly the K4 every year, I fly it up some con's kester at high speed. Pull the trigger, and put lots of air between me and anything else. Repeat it two more times and land. Convergence doesn't matter when you can smell what the other guy had for lunch. Now if you want four or more kills, you have to bother with learning ACM and how to aim in it. By the time you get three, the bad guys have decided to eliminate you for your success thinking you are a muppet.

[PR3D4TOR]

I disagree a lot with what you are saying.  You act like the 109 should always have the E advantage and always have the upper hand. The 109K has a great vertical when it has the advantage and against other planes on equal terms, true. This is not always the case though.

There is an essential truth that you seem to be unaware of: Speed dictates the engagement. This is the problem for all agile, but slow fighters like the Hurricane and Zero. Tokyo Rose would call the Allied pilots cowards and dare them to stay and fight because the British and Americans would use their superior speed to avoid fighting unless they had the advantage. The result was that when the Japanese bounced the Allies, the Allied fighters would just walk away from the fight. When the Japanese were caught at a disadvantage they had no choice but to accept combat.

Whenever I'm flying the K4 and happen upon a lone Spit that has alt on me I simply keep my distance, equalize E, build some E over him, before engaging him. And he has no option but to fight me from a disadvantage. Given the excellent flying characteristics of the spit it is always dangerous to fight one. One mistake and you could be dead. However, if you fly right the 109 can always just walk away, never giving the Spit a chance to get on your six at anything less than 800 yards.


Also it is fun to pawn Spits, though this is obviously a matter of vastly different levels of pilot skill. K4 vs 8 spit8's



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecNF1K7c8pk

[PR3D4TOR]

You know I had a perfect 109K sortie I was trying the upload to films and screenshots but it is too big for the server. Dangit. Wish I knew how to post to YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlxqk0iHp5w

[DmonSlyr]

I'll try to get my vid posted today, it was a really cool sortie.

That Video is pretty cool there.

There is an essential truth that you seem to be unaware of: Speed dictates the engagement. This is the problem for all agile, but slow fighters like the Hurricane and Zero. Tokyo Rose would call the Allied pilots cowards and dare them to stay and fight because the British and Americans would use their superior speed to avoid fighting unless they had the advantage. The result was that when the Japanese bounced the Allies, the Allied fighters would just walk away from the fight. When the Japanese were caught at a disadvantage they had no choice but to accept combat.

Whenever I'm flying the K4 and happen upon a lone Spit that has alt on me I simply keep my distance, equalize E, build some E over him, before engaging him. And he has no option but to fight me from a disadvantage. Given the excellent flying characteristics of the spit it is always dangerous to fight one. One mistake and you could be dead. However, if you fly right the 109 can always just walk away, never giving the Spit a chance to get on your six at anything less than 800 yards.

I'll try to get my vid posted today, it was a really cool sortie, I'll show it all from the cockpit.

That Video is pretty cool there.

Yeah I agree with you there. This is one of the reasons why I like AH so much. The planes actually perform close to real expectations. Many of the Jap planes in the game cannot dive well or hold speed very well and they will get out ran every time. I use to try to fight a6ms in my 109s instead of running, but that is one plane, along with the ki43, that I just dont even try to fight anymore unless I have E advantage. I always say the fastest planes in AH have the biggest advantage in the MA simply because they can extend away from the fight once they realize they cannot roll inside you. I proved that flying the tempest in tour 181, Jan 2015. The plane can get away from almost any danger and can easily roam around the map without too much catching it (this is to say if you keep it fast and don't try to get slow with the enemy).

It is funny because it sounds like I am bashing the 109's. It is the plane I fly the most in AH, mainly because it can still put up a great fight but it still gives me challenge. I love fighting in the defensive and have practiced this art very well. I even got the most kills in the 109g14 in tour 182, Feb 2015. I have a lot of experience fighting planes and good pilots in the 109s. One of my best fights was vs KillnU in his 109k vs my 109g14. It was then I realized that the G14 has just a slight turning advantage against the 109k4. The spit is just much more versatile in terms of reaction times and pulling up the nose on a rolling scissors. I agree with bustr that that spit8 missed a lot of shots and wasn't pushing the plane as hard as he could have. I didn't particularly see many angles the spit was trying to pull, although Dolby still flew that very well, and you can see how much it takes him to work flaps and throttle for a position. The problems with the 109s are that they do not perform well at high speeds. This causes 109 pilots to get low n slow from trying to engage cons below them and chopping throttle to make a shot, it really puts people in a bad position when they cannot aim the plane correctly. They can't just BnZ because the plane can only go like 450 before you have to slow down to maneuver, this makes it easy to pick from higher cons. It is easy to stay fast in a 190D because you can dive down to 530 and still make a shot, then zoom away. In a 109 you cannot do that as easily because you have to manage speed, and it causes a lot of pilots to lose their E in low alts which makes it easy to pick and gang. In planes like the 109g2, staying fast is very difficult, especially when cons are coming in higher than you. The 109 has a lot of great attributes but it is still limited to an extent, the 109K is really the only 109 that may have a chance at extending away from most unbalanced fights. Many of the times in my g14 planes out run me. The g14 is a lot of fun to fly because aiming is much easier, it still keeps moderate performing speed in the MA, and can give a lot of pilots a hard time in any plane they are in.

The vert is very important in a lot of fights but lets consider this (you can disagree but I've fought this a LOT) the F4U out maneuvers the Ki84. The ki84 is better in the vert for sure, but the F4U has better flaps, can work the fight, can turn sharper, and is better in a slow stall fight. The F4U is brutal in a 1v1 fight, probably one of the best in the game. No one thinks so because it is poor on the deck, has poor excel, and takes patients to learn, and is also hard to stay fast in. It is not a beginner plane, but the dynamics of the plane make it more suitable for turning and setting up positions far better than most planes, and this is why the spit out maneuvers the 109 in most circumstances given equal E, it is so versatile.

[PR3D4TOR]

I agree that the F4U is a very good knife fighter, but with the exception of the monster -4, the Corsairs have that one glaring flaw: Acceleration/climb rate (same thing really). A Corsair with E to spare is a very dangerous foe, so the first thing that needs to be done is bleed him of E. When he's out of E he's done for and can easily be spiral climbed above and dominated by most 109s (perhaps even the Emil). Because of his poor acceleration he can't use his superior speed against early 109s because they will catch him before he gets up to speed. Of course the MA is not a dueling arena and the F4U is very effective in the multi-plane engagement when it has other E monsters in support.

[The Fugitive]

Violator sent me the film and I up-loaded it to MediaFire. I've watched it a few times now and like his plane control at slow speeds as well as his aim. I hope he gives us a bit of a "play by play" about a couple of the fights to see how the maneuvers fit with his thoughts on the engagement.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/a5iu5y6243ptdba/109k_sortie.ahf

[EagleDNY]

Violator sent me the film and I up-loaded it to MediaFire. I've watched it a few times now and like his plane control at slow speeds as well as his aim. I hope he gives us a bit of a "play by play" about a couple of the fights to see how the maneuvers fit with his thoughts on the engagement.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/a5iu5y6243ptdba/109k_sortie.ahf

Good fighting training in the K4 there.   I wouldn't have thought to use the flaps as much as he did - will have to try it next time out.

[MK-84]

Butthurt? Are you 4 years old or just drunk?

All I said was "109s can out fight spits" lol. I believe that when it comes down to it, the 109 is the superior air frame in terms of fighter on fighter. It has nothing at all to do with my "ego" or  because "I always win against spits" because that is false. To be quite frank, you pulled that all out of your arse.


Fixed.

    According to these comparisons 
    http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
    Matching spitfires VS 109s, Like the spit8 vs the 109g2, the spit16 vs a g14 and a spit14 vs a k4 all are extremely close in performance. Close enough that it would really be hard to determine which could outfight the other. The only big enough differences to matter I noticed is that the spitfire will outturn a 109, and has better lethality.  Additionally that comparison page doesn't show that spitfires have massively better handling in a dive. Roll rate also isnt shown but I'm pretty sure the advantage goes to the spit throughout most if not all speeds.
    So unless have a stupid match like a spit5 vs a 109k4, the performance is very close with the advantage going to a spitfire.
This all assumes some bizarre scenario for a  1v1 where the energy states are equal and so are the pilots.  This never happens

[PR3D4TOR]

You got the match-ups wrong. The Spit8 and 16 are contemporaries to the G6/G14. The G2 is contemporary to the early Spit9. The Spitfire does not have useful flaps and very few Spit pilots use them. In AH all 109's will out turn a Spit16 by using flaps in the one circle fight. Even the K4. They also roll marginally better than all the Spits save the 16. In addition the 109's are always faster than their contemporary Spits, with the notable exception of the G6 which is slower than the Spit 16 and only match the Spit8 down low.

If the Spit uses flaps in desperation they add so much drag that the Spit can then be out circle-climbed fairly easy by a contemporary 109.

That said, the Spit is a very dangerous opponent to any 109. The Spit is easier to fly for noobs, but the margins are in favor of a well flown 109.

[DmonSlyr]

You got the match-ups wrong. The Spit8 and 16 are contemporaries to the G6/G14. The G2 is contemporary to the early Spit9. The Spitfire does not have useful flaps and very few Spit pilots use them. In AH all 109's will out turn a Spit16 by using flaps in the one circle fight. Even the K4. They also roll marginally better than all the Spits save the 16. In addition the 109's are always faster than their contemporary Spits, with the notable exception of the G6 which is slower than the Spit 16 and only match the Spit8 down low.

If the Spit uses flaps in desperation they add so much drag that the Spit can then be out circle-climbed fairly easy by a contemporary 109.

That said, the Spit is a very dangerous opponent to any 109. The Spit is easier to fly for noobs, but the margins are in favor of a well flown 109.

Absolutely wrong man!!!!

The 109k4 will not out turn any spit besides the spit14 (maybe). There is no way in hell a 109k could outurn a spit16-9-8-V-seafire. The flaps on the 109s are great. As you can see how much I used flaps during my sortie, I use them for lift and also make it easier to roll over without going forward too much. During my sortie here, you can see that A. my 109k4 was not going to be able to out maneuver the spit 9 after we merged and B. I would not have been able to attempt a rope in this situation. I had to push the nose down and attempt another over shoot technique (during that speed part that Morfiend mentioned where the 109 may have a small speed window for blackout) very advanced move and I timed the roll over well. The 109K, G14, 6, 2 cannot out turn the spit, even with full flaps down.

The spit should be getting their flaps out to slow down well enough to get inside the rolling scissors. The 109s do not beat the margins on the spit in close quarter flying. The spits simply dominate the K4s and G14s. The spit16 is a beast. There is no way a well flown 109 would beat a well known spit16. The G2 and G6 cannot out turn a spit9 or 8. The F model is the only 109 that can win against a spit fire. It still will not out turn a spit 5. I don't know where you get your engagements from, how many times you been in the DA or TA dueling and practicing planes. But you are way off on your vision that you can simply just rope a spit with a 109 in any circumstance or that if the flaps come down in a spit it is a desperate attempt. That is just wrong.

When was the last time you flew both these planes?

I know you think the 109s are all mighty and can perform the best out of any plane (if flown correctly) but that is wrong, especially against spits.

[DmonSlyr]

Since my recent comeback to the game I've been flying a bit more the 109K4, and I do enjoy it a lot. Does anyone have any tips on flying torque-zilla?

I've found compression isn't as much of an issue as I'd thought, turning off combat trim and easing on the throttle lets you recover quite nicely. I'm still getting used to the taters, deflection shooting those potatos is an art I haven't mastered yet  . I've heard that some people set the convergence to 150 on the MK108, is it useful? I've tried it but haven't had more success than with my standard 350 convergence (I use the same on all planes).

In contrast, the Luftwaffe used to set the convergence at 400m for both the MK108 and MG131 cowl guns.

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So what's it good at? Besides going fast, of course 

Good fighting training in the K4 there.   I wouldn't have thought to use the flaps as much as he did - will have to try it next time out.

Thank you for posting this Fugitive.

I will explain in full detail when I get home from work some of the maneuvers I used, Why and How I used them, and also why I used the flaps so much. I cannot upload the film, watch it, and explain it at work.

Even though I missed a lot of shots... they were close. See how I set up shots by predicting where my enemies are going to fly.

Notice the defensive maneuvers I use on the spit and yak. I created a quick speed window to get the planes to black out while they are trying to chase me. When I get in the right position, I roll over the top get some flaps out, and try to roll around on their 6. The yak got picked right when I had em where I wanted him the second time. The key in defensive maneuvers is timing, and getting the enemy to black out and slow down as they are trying to make the shot. If they lose sight of you as you are rolling over you have the advantage now. Id recommend you watch this and gather how I use flap control, SA, throttle management, and ACM to dodge bullets and go from the defense to the offense.

Hope this helps, and again Ill explain a lot more of the video play by play on my personal computer later today.

[PR3D4TOR]

Absolutely wrong man!!!!

The 109k4 will not out turn any spit besides the spit14 (maybe). There is no way in hell a 109k could outurn a spit16-9-8-V-seafire.

Calm down now...    A 109K-4 using flaps will out turn a Spit8/9/16 without flaps. And most Spit drivers don't use flaps. That's what I said. Both Mosq's turn list and GonZo's confirm this if you don't take my word for it. The Spit14 is completely outclassed.

[DmonSlyr]

Calm down now...    A 109K-4 using flaps will out turn a Spit8/9/16 without flaps. And most Spit drivers don't use flaps. That's what I said. Both Mosq's turn list and GonZo's confirm this if you don't take my word for it. The Spit14 is completely outclassed.

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 The chart shows that the spit16 has a better turn radius with and without flaps vs the 109 with and without flaps.. So VS a spitfire who can fly correctly it will lose. I know the 109s have a lot of fighting potential, but they are outmatched vs a spit in a turn fight. They metrics there prove that. If you are fighting against a weak pilot on the spit16 who cannot use flaps, then you aren't fighting someone who knows the spit16 well enough to give you an accurate fight. If you are fighting against a spit16 who knows how to fly the plane properly, the 109k4 and G14 have absolutely no chance at winning a close quarter fight. I'd love to go to the DA or TA to prove my point. The spitfires are easier to fly and have a lighter nose to pull up after a rolling scissors, which is very important during a rolling scissors. The 109 has a lot of characteristics that allow it to be a great fighter in the MA, however it doesn't have the reaction time or the easy control feeling like the spits do. In the DA the fight would be over soo quickly in a 8-16 and if you get slow it wont beat a 9 or seafire. In the MA, if you don't have the E advantage you can do what I did in the video and attempt an overshoot, but other than that running away is difficult because they both gain speed quickly in a dive. You really should fly both the planes tonight in the MA and see for yourself how much easier it is to control the spitfire and turn inside planes while keeping E.

[bustr]

Flying a spit against a muppet in a K4, you learned to use zoom to look for the state of the flaps. And it was a give away that was coming when they raised the nose.

Knowing sooner than later the flaps were out is the key to begin beating their K4. Still, unlike the K4, which has notches of air brakes(flaps), the spit has one chance at getting the flaps down and setting up that shot. Then it's a reset and you have to go through it again. The K4's great advantage in this game is it's WEP with it's flaps out and it's WEP with it's flaps in. Even if Hitech modeled as perked the spit14 on 150 octane, that would only mean it was faster Mil\WEP and climbing Mil and WEP. But not better with those flaps at slow speeds.

Then all 109's have that flaps out slow down and fad away ability to force everyone else not in a A6m to blow by. And since most players can't shoot, 109s rule.

[PR3D4TOR]

I've been flying mostly 109's (F being my favorite) and 110's since 2004, but currently I'm not playing AH (for the last year or so). I'm eagerly awaiting the new graphics update to give AH another go. In the 109F I regularly took on F4F's and FM2's and won knife fights. The Friedrich is truly a UFO.