CraterMA

[bustr]

I really wish we had a rock only tile with no trees. Say a dark to medium gray and some type of brown similar to the blue grey and green next to the pearl rock with 160ft tall pines. Having 160ft pines growing straight up out of a 1000ft vertical cliff face is beyond gamey. And not all western Europe fiords or alps is dolomite white. Most is some variation on granite. Just look at the Matterhorn or Eiger in summer.

Greebo do you have a chart to understand when and which tiles will sprout trees on an angled surface.

I gave up on the dolomite and giant pines. I start out with the dolomite then blot in one small circle of snow anywhere those pines show up that they shouldn't be. If anyone trys doing the Dover cliffs, won't they be surprise with all the sprouting pines that never grew on the face of those chalk cliffs in England.

Oh my post titled Copprhed, has the download of my for now finished gunnery terrain. I changed the terrain to reflect the paths of water to a greater degree.

[Greebo]

When I started with the new TE the first thing I did was make a test terrain with distinct blocks of each of the 20 terrain types to get an idea of what the clutter looked like on each one. I didn't test them to see at what angle the trees etc stopped being applied to the texture though. I just flew the terrain offline and took screenshots of each tile.

I agree an extra type of rock would have been nice, plus a snow/ snow covered trees texture, with a couple less of the intermediate green/rock layers. I think that now terrains have been made its a bit late for that sort of change.

I agree the rock texture could do with being darker, it is hard to tell it from the snow areas sometimes.

Anyone making a special events terrain will have the option of making their own texture sets with specifically designed clutter arrangements for each tile. The editor includes loads of different trees to choose from.

[Easyscor]

When I started with the new TE the first thing I did was make a test terrain with distinct blocks of each of the 20 terrain types to get an idea of what the clutter looked like on each one. I didn't test them to see at what angle the trees etc stopped being applied to the texture though. I just flew the terrain offline and took screenshots of each tile.

I agree an extra type of rock would have been nice, plus a snow/ snow covered trees texture, with a couple less of the intermediate green/rock layers. I think that now terrains have been made its a bit late for that sort of change.

I agree the rock texture could do with being darker, it is hard to tell it from the snow areas sometimes.

Anyone making a special events terrain will have the option of making their own texture sets with specifically designed clutter arrangements for each tile. The editor includes loads of different trees to choose from.

For clarification.
A builder can choose textures for a hybrid terrset using the default textures from the 3 terrsets that have been released, however several are used in more then one terrset so there aren't 4 full sets available. This would still be the fastest way to add variety to an AvA/SEA terrain.
Although it isn't hard to create a custom terrset, all 20 slots for the textures must be provided even if some are repeating dummy textures such as 3 or 4 identical sand tiles. Then for each ground tile type the builder wishes to use, he'll need to add the appropriate terrset trees and buildings. The limiting thing about trees, buildings and bushes is that they come in dedicated terrsets that can't be modified. Unfortunately a PAC bush can't be placed in an ETO terrset and ETO buildings can't be placed into a PAC terrset. Even the buildings in a terrain tile are fixed within the list of available shapes in any given terrset.
I will take care here to point out that the objects for terrain tiles are Speedtree objects and not the same as objects for square tile objects used in bases, towns and factories. Square tile objects can not be placed into terrain tiles.

[Greebo]

I have uploaded a revised version of CraterMA to the host. Note the weather won't work until HTC update the relevant file at their end so if anyone with a marginal PC wants to do a before/after framerate check it might be useful.

Changes include:

Cleared trees from FOV of SBs, raised low-lying SBs to a minimum of 400 feet alt.

Cleared trees from the ends of runways where possible. Some trees are built into the airfield objects and cannot be altered in an MA terrain. Specifically at one end of the non-diagonal runway at the mid field and on the grass strip at the small field.

Altered the terrain height around some bases and strats to match the alt of the base rim, rather than the base object height. This stops there being an obvious step around the rim of the base.

Added some more clutter around the tank town bases and made the run from the outer to inner bases stepped rather than a single slope.

I altered the field ride assignments in the TE to match the norm for MA terrains, i.e. Me 163 only at three fields. However this does not seem to have transferred to the game online. Not sure if this is a bug or its supposed to be that way.

[hitech]

I have uploaded a revised version of CraterMA to the host. Note the weather won't work until HTC update the relevant file at their end so if anyone with a marginal PC wants to do a before/after framerate check it might be useful.

Changes include:

Cleared trees from FOV of SBs, raised low-lying SBs to a minimum of 400 feet alt.

Cleared trees from the ends of runways where possible. Some trees are built into the airfield objects and cannot be altered in an MA terrain. Specifically at one end of the non-diagonal runway at the mid field and on the grass strip at the small field.

Altered the terrain height around some bases and strats to match the alt of the base rim, rather than the base object height. This stops there being an obvious step around the rim of the base.

Added some more clutter around the tank town bases and made the run from the outer to inner bases stepped rather than a single slope.

I altered the field ride assignments in the TE to match the norm for MA terrains, i.e. Me 163 only at three fields. However this does not seem to have transferred to the game online. Not sure if this is a bug or its supposed to be that way.

Did you build the weather file into the terrain?

HiTech

[hitech]

Clouds are back up.

[TDeacon]

(text removed)

Also I didn't like the way players were climbing the canyon walls to overlook everyone so I have bordered the fighting area with water this time.

(text removed)

I think this change is a mistake, as it removes an interesting additional dimension to the crater GV battles.  This dimension was also a big part of the popular canyon GV battle on Trinity (V185??).  Clifftop shooters can always be countered by (1) shooting them from the ground (use a berm if you have to), or (2) sending GVs up after them, or (3) bombing them.  The problem with the crater has always been limited ability to maneuver, with most "combat" being a firing line on one crest shooting at their opposite numbers on the other 2 crests.  If you must change this, replace the cliffs with hills/mountains, so people can still maneuver around the flanks in cover, and shoot from elevated firing positions (after appropriate effort to reach them). 

You may not know this if you don't GV a lot, but without elevation (for spotting) and cover provided by major hills and crests (for maneuver), GVing often degenerates into people hiding behind small hills with their engines off, detecting advancing opposing GVs using "sonar", and shooting them in the back as they drive by.  Gets old fast. 

MH

[bustr]

TD,

Have you wandered around inside of the crater and through the TT object itself? Or are you giving your 2c worth without scoping out the new terrain? With the new trees, the last place you want to be is high up and exposed. Just like trying to find tanks down in the trees with a fighter to bomb them, you won't see them from a higher elevation. They will see you standing out alone up there.

I posted a film from my offline terrain where I used the new TT object. It's in the sticky asking for screen shots and films. For every exposed tank you could see while I was flying in the trees, there was an additional 40 tanks you will only find by driving a tank in to look for them.

[TDeacon]

Have you wandered around inside of the crater and through the TT object itself? Or are you giving your 2c worth without scoping out the new terrain? (text removed)

If you re-read my post, you will see that I am commenting on the quoted text.  I wish I could also try out the new terrain to comment further, but my hardware can't handle AH3.  Once AH3 replaces AH2, I will have to stop playing unless/until I build a new PC. 

From your posts I infer you don't GV much, but there can be much more to GVing than blundering into one ambush after another on level ground.  As alluded to in my previous post, good GV terrain should give options for flanking movement and observation, albeit at a cost in time and effort.  Ideally, it also should include major discontinuities on the "flat" to allow some degree of covered approach to most positions.  One should have to look for these covered approaches, of course.  Image what the air game would be like if we all were limited to the same altitude.   

MH

[Greebo]

The map below shows the current layout of beta CraterMA's TT area.

The red squares represent the areas controlled by the base objects' terrain. I cannot shape the terrain or change the clutter within these areas, only alter the overall elevation of the base and change the colour of the underlying terrain. However the default terrain within these squares has more detailed elevation changes, of up to 100 feet or so vertically, than you can get shaping the normal terrain.

The TT area varies from 100-150 feet, the inner V bases from 150-250 feet, the flak bases 100 feet and the outer V bases at 6,400-6,500 feet. The SPs between the inner and outer bases are at about 1,200 feet. There are small hills of 350 feet between the inner ring of SPs and the inner V bases. The manned 88s on the flak bases have a very long range shot at the coasts of TT, but can't see the SPs directly.

I am not keen on having very high terrain near the central ring of SPs that could be used for long range spawn camping. I can't stop short range camping, but at least the victim has some sort of chance of firing back and the camper can be outflanked from neighbouring SPs.

The terrain vertices in AH3 are closer together and can be set to a vertical resolution of 1 foot rather than about 63 feet for this terrain in AH2. So I can now make small rises of 20-30 feet that will hide a tank. This should make it easier for players to outflank each other using cover. I'll have a look at extending the coastlines around TT a little bit, making them hilly rather than just a straight slope down to the lake shore, but I don't want to go too far doing this as a larger area just dilutes the action.

[Chalenge]

From your posts I infer you don't GV much, but . . .
MH

I GV a lot. I know you like to take potshots from 5k with a Panther from up high where you can back off of the edge easily. Since the terrain no longer has the sharp edged polygon surfaces your tactic is not going to work anymore, anyway. The tactic has never been that effective anyway.

I hope you can get a new machine soon and stay in the game. I love shooting back.

[TDeacon]

I am not keen on having very high terrain near the central ring of SPs that could be used for long range spawn camping. I can't stop short range camping, but at least the victim has some sort of chance of firing back and the camper can be outflanked from neighbouring SPs.   

Greebo, in my experience "long range spawn camping" isn't really possible.  This is because it is difficult to hit something in motion at over 2-3K.  Instead, what you do at long range is wait until someone has moved forward from the spawn point to their combat position, is stopped (hopefully with engine off), and paying attention to closer opponents, and then to in a sense "shoot them in the back".  Doing this usually takes several shots as you range in, which is why you want them distracted and/or with engine off.  Also, usually the only way to get a line of sight at such long ranges is to be at a higher elevation.  Of course, LOS works both ways ...

The terrain vertices in AH3 are closer together and can be set to a vertical resolution of 1 foot rather than about 63 feet for this terrain in AH2. So I can now make small rises of 20-30 feet that will hide a tank. This should make it easier for players to outflank each other using cover. I'll have a look at extending the coastlines around TT a little bit, making them hilly rather than just a straight slope down to the lake shore, but I don't want to go too far doing this as a larger area just dilutes the action. 

Admittedly I haven't (can't) tried out your new crater terrain due to my aforementioned hardware issues.  However, I don't think you need to worry about extensive hilly/covered terrain surrounding the main fighting area “diluting the action”.  My general observation is that most GVers drive straight towards the nearest action (on all the maps), and so will still gravitate towards the center of your crater.  Some may try for flanking positions.  But, if these flankers are perceived as being effective, others will then move to block/ambush these flanking moves, and so play balance is preserved.  IMHO, such GV maneuver options are much more interesting than sitting on the firing line all the time.  BTW, you don't want to limit yourself to discrete small hills, but also a mixture of areas with long fields of fire and some where longer folds in the terrain provide covered approaches. 

I know you like to take potshots from 5k with a Panther from up high where you can back off of the edge easily. Since the terrain no longer has the sharp edged polygon surfaces your tactic is not going to work anymore, anyway. (deleted)

Chalenge, FYI a Panther is the last thing you want on the current CraterMA TT cliffs, as it lacks sufficient gun depression.  The best GV for that is a Panzer or M18, actually. 

WRT taking up hull down positions and backing off when they have your range, this is a standard tactic, and does not require “sharp edged polygon surfaces”.  In fact, sharp-edged terrain modeling hurts those GV's with gun depression issues (usually those with longer barrels such as Panther, Tigers, T34/85, Firefly, etc.). 

And yes, once they notice you up there, they do “shoot back”.   

[Chalenge]

Yeah, I'm more than familiar with it. I was referring to OZkansas and your use of the hills near 103. I have clear CraterMA hillsides a few times already.

I will be interested to see if we get an update to OZkansas. It is by far my favorite map.

[bustr]

I GV on the AH2 CraterMA, and I have built a terrain testing the AH3 terrain editor and have 2000ft elevations over the same TT object now in use in the updated CraterMA.

As I said, the trees in AH3 completely change the concept of who can see what from a GV and from an aircraft. Along with the more detailed small elevations with trees that can be laid down. And with the new random village complexes Greebo took advantage of adding around the spawns.

You are not going to see each other anymore at long range unless everyone comes out of the trees. Once they figure out trees mean life in a GV. High elevation long range sniping will loose it's importance. The terrain I created for offline gunnery training has about 50 tanks hidden in the trees on the new tank town object. Except for the ones I placed on the top of hills with no trees, you cannot make out tanks in the trees until you are almost on top of them.

From the higher open elevations next to the TT object, the open plain adjacent to my TT object, or flying below the trees in an IL2 trying to spot tanks to shoot. You cannot see the ones hiding under the trees in the shadows. My tank town object is the same tank town object Greebo is using on CraterMA and the same tank town object Waffle used for the center of NDisles.

When we were first testing this object, we couldn't get Stampf to do any testing flying an airplane. He would get in a GV and disappear into the tank town object's trees. Other testers were unable to see him or each other in GV hiding just 2-3 trees deep into groves. Most of their combat took place at 600-800yds. From a spotter plane I would watch them drive past stampf sitting still 600yds away in the trees. To bomb him I would have to carpet bomb the grove with lancs. Using an IL2 the only shot I could get was flat into his side flying in low on a road, which either got me dead hitting a tree or him main gunning me at close range.

This TT object is not your old GVing and the trees have changed that. If high elevation sniping is so important to you, see if you can talk Greebo into making a map to suit your fancy. Or, the AH3 terrain editor is not that hard to learn with Greebo and Easycor's help.

Hey Greebo, unless you visited the base of the crater wall on the inside by hand, you have areas at the base that start out below the average normal elevation similar to sink holes. I doubt anyone will ever visit those areas during game play the way you have setup TT.

[Chilli]

Too bad you weren't able to join us the other week when there was a Special Event for tanks in beta.  I had a blast and never killed a single thing.  I was too busy laughing from the fun that Copprhed and I were having trying to get to that perfect angle to pop Copprhed's "snake bellied" turret..........  and as I said before never quite finished that accomplishment while I got rather familiar with the desk and new clock in the tower...

If anything, I believe the game developments in tanking will bring far more GV'ers into the game and hopefully not deter too much from the great flight model that they have here.