Author Topic: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)  (Read 8002 times)

Offline Bizman

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2016, 01:53:06 AM »
Gman, I can't help you but I'm interested.

Do you mean that the landscape moves faster than your head? Looking front right or left producing a right or left 90 degrees view? Similar to TrackIr where small head movements do a lot on the screen?

If so, such enhancements don't sound like they'd add immersion. Even worse, an accelerated view combined with the balance organs working at normal speed may cause nausea or balance problems after taking the VR goggles off. I may be wrong, though.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2016, 02:23:55 AM »
Here is what is happening, and what I interpret from what HTC said regarding this before.

With VR in flight sims now, it's very, very difficult to look behind you, even looking 90 degrees to the side requires a radical head/body movement.  It's far, far slower than TrackIR or thumbhat/numpad, to the point that VR play would be at a massive disadvantage.

So, what HT is trying to implement (again, all my interpretation, not his per se or necessarily accurate/correct), is that the same VR view you get looking straight ahead, can be added to each of the various hat views.  IE if you push thumb left/look left, you'll get the same view as anyone NOT in VR is getting, but the scene will be IN virtual reality, and you can look around a bit just as you do while looking forward.  What I suspect is HT is just deciding/tinkering on just how much, if any, looking about one can do while in VR and in a non-frontal view. 

It isn't disorienting at all, not for me in the slightest, it's just like having a VR unit going, and being able to look around as you did at your monitor in terms of the thumbhat/numpad and lcd interface when using the various look directions.  The view isn't "accelerated" as it is in TrackIR, it's just "combined", if you so choose to use them, with the thumbhat/numpad view system.  You don't see the view quickly flip by to "look left" if you move your thumb left, as it happens in TrackIR, if you have "instant view" set, it'll instantly flick to the 90/rear/etc view you select with your hat, but just be in VR mode still.  It's fast, and not disorienting nor does it affect immersion at all, at least for me.

In terms of the "landscape" moving faster than my head, no, it's not really like that, I'm referring to the scaling.  If you use TrackIR, you'll know that you can scale just how much your head movement corresponds to the screen movement, ie make less head movement = far more in game/screen turning than reality, so that just a look to say your 11 o oclock in your seat = looking right behind you.  What HTC has started to do with this new VR view implementation IMO is just to add that type of advantage to VR gaming as well.  IE instead of being locked into 1/1 movement, instead of scaling the head movement in VR, which would be difficult or maybe even not possible, I'm not sure, is to give the VR player the ability to combine the hat view system with VR, a sort of combination of both methods, sort of like putting VR into the hat system I guess. 

I guess bottom line is this:  move hat to get VR viewpoint in corresponding hat direction immediately, while still holding head forward and not having to crank your entire body/head around to see beside or behind yourself. IMO it's the best compromise/combination we can get, and as I said, I know other sims with online servers are screaming for this type of idea, as you are at a massive disadvantage in fights with standard VR vs TrackIR/thumbhat.  I wish I could demonstrate just how badly in person, if i stuck either VR unit on anyone, and then fought them with just trackIR/hat, prior to what HTC has started to try and do, you would not be able to keep me in sight worth poo, and would die very, very quickly, regardless of how good you are outside of VR.  It just takes far too long and is too uncomfortable and slow to try and keep a target in your forward view while in VR the standard way.  Now, once this new way is fine tuned a bit, IMO it'll be nearly an equal playing field.

It's very important too, as VR is going to be a big future in all games including this one, yet if VR players were to be at a big disadvantage in fights, it would be a large negative to have to combat, and would create complaint threads beyond anything yet seen, especially once VR costs come down and it becomes mainstream, which is only 2 or 3 years away IMO.  HTC is well ahead of this issue, it's impressing that they've ID'd this as a future potential big problem, and I think their solution is by far the best option, and once it's matured and been tinkered/tuned/etc, will at worst not be an issue to keep people out of VR and potentially the game itself, and at best be the standard for the entire online/pvp flight sim genre.

edit - I'll try and make a video of this to show instead of tell, again, this is a critical feature/issue for VR and future VR players, which will be many, it's inevitable. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 02:34:35 AM by Gman »

Offline Bizman

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2016, 02:45:23 AM »
"Scaling" - that's the word I was after. I can understand it might not affect your inner ear when looking horizontally, but vertically flipping the world upside down by slightly raising your chin sounds disturbing, especially when flying low. Then again, who am I to tell, I haven't used any of the head movement based controllers.
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline hitech

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2016, 09:48:00 AM »
I have not worked on the implementation view change to VR. The change would be that when you move the hat switch, it would select your current forward view. I.E. if you press left it would be like you turned your body left. Your VR would then track from that home position.

HiTech

Offline Gman

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2016, 09:53:16 AM »
THat's what's happening on my end with Rift now - I can press a hat view and it moves my VR view to that view - that wouldn't happen before, I just thought you had implemented it since you had last mentioned it.  Maybe just something in the latest GF drivers is letting the hat work while in VR, as I'm sure it didn't before the latest beta update.  It works pretty good in dogfights too, I can press look up, the most important button for me in fights, and easily pick up my target and then get into "plane" with him and pull to get him into the sight.

Offline hitech

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2016, 10:31:26 AM »
THat's what's happening on my end with Rift now - I can press a hat view and it moves my VR view to that view - that wouldn't happen before, I just thought you had implemented it since you had last mentioned it.  Maybe just something in the latest GF drivers is letting the hat work while in VR, as I'm sure it didn't before the latest beta update.  It works pretty good in dogfights too, I can press look up, the most important button for me in fights, and easily pick up my target and then get into "plane" with him and pull to get him into the sight.

Yes the views are working but not like i wish them to, when selecting a view your head does VR does not modify the view. My new method would let you move and rotate your head from the up view. I.E. change to like you were laying on your back and moving your head.

HiTech

Offline Gman

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2016, 10:51:47 AM »
Great, that's exactly what I was hoping how it would work. 

Offline Wiley

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2016, 10:59:33 AM »
Are you planning on having the hat views starting point customizable, like the normal hat views?  I believe that would be best so you don't have to constantly shimmy around obstructions like the plate above the F4U's seat, for example when you press the "up" button.

Wiley.
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Offline terrydew

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2016, 11:23:41 AM »
We finally get a technology that moves us much closer to reality and we want to dumb it down to make it easy? With VR you should have to do the same thing the real pilots did, lean up turn your body to look back. I know I will be in the minority, but I would much rather have a separate arena for just VR if the disadvantage bothers you. You have to have scaling for trackir because your eyes have to be able to see the monitor which is not the case with VR.

IMHO
Terry

Offline Wiley

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2016, 11:32:16 AM »
We finally get a technology that moves us much closer to reality and we want to dumb it down to make it easy? With VR you should have to do the same thing the real pilots did, lean up turn your body to look back. I know I will be in the minority, but I would much rather have a separate arena for just VR if the disadvantage bothers you. You have to have scaling for trackir because your eyes have to be able to see the monitor which is not the case with VR.

IMHO
Terry

So... don't use it?

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Offline FLS

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2016, 11:52:50 AM »
Yes FLS, but did you notice the views move backwards as well, ie left goes right, right goes left?

Did you try TrackIR relative move?




Offline FLS

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2016, 12:02:31 PM »
I have not worked on the implementation view change to VR. The change would be that when you move the hat switch, it would select your current forward view. I.E. if you press left it would be like you turned your body left. Your VR would then track from that home position.

HiTech

So if I look up with VR and use the hat back view I'll be looking at the back up view while holding the rear view? And I can still move side to side to look around the headrest when I lower my gaze with VR? That would be good and save some neck strain.  Even if the hat only did left,  right, and back, it would work. :aok 

Offline Gman

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2016, 12:21:06 PM »
Yes I tried TiR relative mode, no real change with it on or off from what I can see.

Regarding the whole "but it isn't realistic" argument against this in VR - if you don't want to use it, you won't have to, just happily use your VR without touching the hat/kp view keys.  If you ever tried VR though in game, you would instantly see how it's a huge disadvantage in fights due to the nature of the beast.  VR users could easily counter argue and say that those who use hat views get "unrealistically" fast and simplified movements, and HTC should limit the speed at which the head turns using the hat/kp, to make it "realistic", if you're using the "realistic" argument regarding VR.

The way HTC is planning to do it is by far the best solution still IMO, and again, if you are concerned about realism, VR users won't be forced to use hat views I don't think, and can just choose to not use them, and continue on with regular VR head movement capability. 

Offline FLS

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2016, 12:42:17 PM »
If you move your head forward and to the side before you look back with the hat, and add an up button, you can check 6 pretty well but if you look around it's disorienting and it's harder to track bandits.

You can also turn your head to look back, recenter your view, then face forward comfortably while scanning your rear view, then recenter again to regain your default front view.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 02:41:53 PM by FLS »

Offline hitech

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Re: Support for 3D Monitors, Glasses, and Goggles (Oculus Rift, Vive, etc)
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2016, 04:34:25 PM »
The new VR view key method works well and was a lot less work then I anticipated.

HiTech