GMAN and Others Worryed about Tracers.

[bustr]

Spent the last hour looking at tracers and hit sprites for some fighters.

Disclaimer, this does not work as well for some planes as it does for other planes. It also over brightens many surfaces.

Beta 17 to increase visibility of tracers and hit sprites.

1. - Use .sliders , then the top slider stdshps, push to max of 4.00.
2. - Set gamma 1.4.
3. - Found you have to repeat the .sliders with some planes by hitting default then sliding it over to 4.00 after you spawn out in it.
4. - Helped increase the vibrancy of hit sprites when shooting from some planes.
5. - Helped some small bit with the general darkening effect the ocean has on anything you look at while it is the back ground.
6. - Will cause bare metal paint schemes to be harder to see hit sprites unless zoomed or inside 200.
7. - Increasing the stdshps slider to 4.00 stopped the black 2D square appearing when the b17, b24 and sometimes the a20 first exploded. 

In most planes this gives you the big white smoke traces and brighter tracer flame viewed through the gunsight reflector plate when not zoomed. The best were either the Mossi6 or 262, then wing mounted .50cal. The best hit sprites were from the P51D and the F4u family and F6f. Spits were not too bad but the Tiffy just didn't respond while it's hit sprites were few to none while planes died from the rounds. Luft planes middling. The worst hit sprites came from the Japanese fighter stable and C.202\5 along with visible tracers. I thought the cannon rounds in general would give the best hit sprites. I did not test every single plane, just a country sampling.

The MK108 30mm and german 20mm if pure HE round, are packed with an explosive that explodes with a burn of 1300C which is why gun cam films show such large flashes. Most HE content explodes brightly if it surface detonates or at least a visible out gassing with small debris from an internal explosion in a wing section. AP\HE punches a hole with more of a response like a .50cal. Early cannon spits used a solid bronze training round until various other rounds became available.

Observations about the gunsights themselves.

1. - The best tracer view response came from the reflector plates that had only a single glass plate and the lightest mask applied by Waffle.
2. - The Japanese Type98 in the a6m family needs to loose the sun shade. Very few pilots ever used those things in combat because they killed the view through the reflector plate just like in our a6m family.
3. - The Type3 in the K84 needs to loose the half slid down sunshade because it blocks half the view hole. Sunshades were either up or down.
4. - The PBP1 in the Russian fighters has a crappy tracer and hit sprite dimming mask. Didn't look at the I16.
5. - In general all of the masks for all of the fighter gunsights, even bomber gunsights need to be lightened by half of what they are now. They dim the tracers and their targets in the beta.

Observations on FoV and hit sprites.

1. - If you zoom to make a 100Mil ring 50mm or set your FoV to 60. Hit sprites are very visible 600 and closer generally to real life.
2. - FoV 100 and higher will shrink hit sprites proportionally along with seemingly their brilliance unless you are 200 and closer, not using zoom.
3. - If you are hitting a con with a steady stream you will get hit sprites. The random one or two that many are looking for to help them correct their aim may not show sprites. Or their custom FoV has shrunk everything to the point they may not see most of their hit sprites unless they have their bullet stream concentrated on one spot on their con.

I have to apologize. I've been doing the testing of new gunsights I'm building that I have not been watching the tracers. In the drone circle it is very easy to hit the drones causing a large amount of sprite activity from the first rounds on target. I also thought Hitech would tweek this one more time before going live.

[JunkyII]

Spent the last hour looking at tracers and hit sprites for some fighters.

Disclaimer, this does not work as well for some planes as it does for other planes. It also over brightens many surfaces.

Beta 17 to increase visibility of tracers and hit sprites.

1. - Use .sliders , then the top slider stdshps, push to max of 4.00.
2. - Set gamma 1.4.
3. - Found you have to repeat the .sliders with some planes by hitting default then sliding it over to 4.00 after you spawn out in it.
4. - Helped increase the vibrancy of hit sprites when shooting from some planes.
5. - Helped some small bit with the general darkening effect the ocean has on anything you look at while it is the back ground.
6. - Will cause bare metal paint schemes to be harder to see hit sprites unless zoomed or inside 200.
7. - Increasing the stdshps slider to 4.00 stopped the black 2D square appearing when the b17, b24 and sometimes the a20 first exploded. 

In most planes this gives you the big white smoke traces and brighter tracer flame viewed through the gunsight reflector plate when not zoomed. The best were either the Mossi6 or 262, then wing mounted .50cal. The best hit sprites were from the P51D and the F4u family and F6f. Spits were not too bad but the Tiffy just didn't respond while it's hit sprites were few to none while planes died from the rounds. Luft planes middling. The worst hit sprites came from the Japanese fighter stable and C.202\5 along with visible tracers. I thought the cannon rounds in general would give the best hit sprites. I did not test every single plane, just a country sampling.

The MK108 30mm and german 20mm if pure HE round, are packed with an explosive that explodes with a burn of 1300C which is why gun cam films show such large flashes. Most HE content explodes brightly if it surface detonates or at least a visible out gassing with small debris from an internal explosion in a wing section. AP\HE punches a hole with more of a response like a .50cal. Early cannon spits used a solid bronze training round until various other rounds became available.

Observations about the gunsights themselves.

1. - The best tracer view response came from the reflector plates that had only a single glass plate and the lightest mask applied by Waffle.
2. - The Japanese Type98 in the a6m family needs to loose the sun shade. Very few pilots ever used those things in combat because they killed the view through the reflector plate just like in our a6m family.
3. - The Type3 in the K84 needs to loose the half slid down sunshade because it blocks half the view hole. Sunshades were either up or down.
4. - The PBP1 in the Russian fighters has a crappy tracer and hit sprite dimming mask. Didn't look at the I16.
5. - In general all of the masks for all of the fighter gunsights, even bomber gunsights need to be lightened by half of what they are now. They dim the tracers and their targets in the beta.

Observations on FoV and hit sprites.

1. - If you zoom to make a 100Mil ring 50mm or set your FoV to 60. Hit sprites are very visible 600 and closer generally to real life.
2. - FoV 100 and higher will shrink hit sprites proportionally along with seemingly their brilliance unless you are 200 and closer, not using zoom.
3. - If you are hitting a con with a steady stream you will get hit sprites. The random one or two that many are looking for to help them correct their aim may not show sprites. Or their custom FoV has shrunk everything to the point they may not see most of their hit sprites unless they have their bullet stream concentrated on one spot on their con.

I have to apologize. I've been doing the testing of new gunsights I'm building that I have not been watching the tracers. In the drone circle it is very easy to hit the drones causing a large amount of sprite activity from the first rounds on target. I also thought Hitech would tweek this one more time before going live.

I've looked at what most of the tracers the guns shoot....look fine the way they are IMO...more then fine, think they look better then most games honestly.

[Gman]

I'll try those settings and see the effects.  I'm not really worried one way or the other, like I said I'm fine with the effects now, they ARE absolutely different though, which is why I've posted and taken screen shots/etc.  Some will want it like AH2, some like myself/Junky/etc won't care or will like the new ones better.  Screen size, graphics card type, resolution played at, so many factors before you even GET to the game settings which could be affecting this.

All I know is that the screen shots I"ve taken from a myriad of types while on the runway look precisely like the AH2 tracers, where as once airborne, the smoke trails and size of the flying dots drastically changes, and the pics are proof of this, films as well.

I don't really understand how the field of view is affecting the size of the tracers, I understand that it does, just not how or why.  I'd much prefer to be at 100, 106, even 120, than 80, or definitely 60 which is awful to fly at IMO, and since 106 was the standard FOV forever with AH, I would figure that the tracers/sprites for hits/etc would be optimized for that FOV, not 60 which is going to be a very unpopular FOV setting.

If it stays how it is, I'm not fussed about it, I've already adjusted just shooting drones, and really noticed how much different/larger they are in AH2 after going back to that after a few days of just shooting constantly in AH3beta.  I will go on record saying that if it stays as is, a LOT of guys will complain, and the ability to hit the enemy is going to take a massive nose dive in the MA - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, perhaps it's more realistic, or better for gameplay, maybe both, who knows.  They sure look better though IMO in terms of appearance and not the size issue.  The hit sprites/flashes are great when you see them up close or zoomed at the right amount. 

Appreciate the effort Bustr, IMO this will be the number one complaint/issue for new players once they get the beta running on their systems - how the tracers and shooting work/look, so this thread and others will be important then.

[bustr]

The mask on the reflector plates needs to be lightened and the sun screen needs to be removed form the Type 98 and the Type 3. That will alleviate some of the tracers issues. The mask on the reflector plates is too dark and acts as a sunscreen in itself. The view through the reflector plate should be clear because all gunsight reflector plates were made of optically clear glass. The exception was early Russian reflector plates that were poorly made.

Since using the .sliders stdshps slider at max brings back the tracer smoke trails, that is a Hitech thing to look into.

The spits 9 - 14 had green tinted bullet proof glass mounted on the inside of the windscreen as a compromise to sunscreens. After the BoB when the MKII gunsight was changed to a square reflector plate and no sunscreen, until late model spitV began getting the bullet proof glass mounted on the inside, there was a pull up sheet of tinted glass from behind the instrument panel. The early round glass MKII had a round tinted sunscreen that could be pivoted out of the way. Pilots didn't like or use it. The bullet proof glass would be about the same green color as the top edge of the gunsight reflector plate in the AH2 La7. It would have to have a green self glow effect to duplicate the sun passing through it while looking at the AH3 world, and it would tint everything green you looked at.

[Gman]

I tried those settings, the sliders and pushing gamma up to 1.4, it had no effect on the tracers, smoke trails, or hit sprites for me.  I had been experimenting with shadows "off", and when doing so, gamma at 1.4 and the other setting at 4.0 - it whites everything out so bad it's like staring into a flashlight, you can't see the convergence lines in the hangar, and buildings look a blinding white, so no go on combining any of these with shadows OFF.  Shadows ON, it's easy to see the effects, but again, zip difference on the tracers.

Conditions where the tracer lines are all but invisible when airborne, when you hit f3 and go outside, you CAN see them, bright as day, but in the cockpit, they are absolutely not there, I've filmed this to show the effect, and then taken the identical plane in AH2 offline and recreated the test, and the difference is pretty huge.  Again, I don't specifically mind, as I think it'll add a whole new interesting dimension to aerial gunnery in the game, making it MUCH more difficult to be accurate, but I'm still concerned it's going to be a possibly negative issue with a whole pile of players when the 1.0 day comes if they look and function as is.  I said before that I think there will be a swath of complaints about not being able to hit anything, rubber bullets, my tracers don't work, wah, etc and etc. 

One thing of note, IMO those who zoom a lot when they shoot (I'm a perpetual zoomer, I have to fight to make myself NOT zoom in at ranges like 300 or less) are going to see more of these "issues", or "features" depending on your point of view I guess.  When zooming the tracers are much different than AH2 as described in all the previous posts I've made, at least on my systems with various settings and resolutions tested.  When NOT zoomed, the effects changes aren't nearly as noticeable. 

It'll all work out, again, I'm not the least bit fussed myself, just interested, and again, think that the masses are IMO going to complain.  Shooting accurately and being able to make wide angle deflection shots is such a huge part of the game that experience is greatly responsible for, and I've found that I've had to make enough adjustments in AH3beta that it's almost been like starting over for me.  Again, not a bad thing, it's actually been a lot of fun offline figuring out what works best for me - again, it's absolutely different on my setup, regardless of what settings changed both in game, NCP, or on the Asus monitor settings. 

I did set my K4 convergence to 650 to practice some long range tater lobs, WOW can you really see the arc and trajectory difference now compared to AH2, I filmed a bunch of that at 1440p too, pretty cool beans.  This beta offline experience has really been burning a whole in my pocket, waiting for the 1.0 version day.  I'm betting we see some 400 player nights in the first week, and more from there.

[bustr]

You know the pass through tube in the DB605 engine was fixed in place and the MK108 round began dropping the moment it left the tip of the spinner? You should fly level at 295-297IAS, pull up the target at 325 and tap a few rounds. The center line of the target will be just about level with the center line of the engine. Each ring of the target is 10ft. See how many feet above the engine line the rounds hit at 325 with your convergence set to 650. Your rounds will hit almost 10ft above the engine line which really means your engine should have exploded from the round detonating in the tube.

You can pull the alt\speed display down unto your gunsight to help you tweek the K4 to 295-297IAS. Only tap a few rounds because the blast from sustained fire will slow your forward momentum raising your AoA.

I set mine at 150-175 which keeps within the spirit of the reality of the very crappy dispersion of the MK108. No engine mounted cannon in ww2 could have it's pitch angle set to alter the ballistic path of it's round. The rounds ballistic path was determined by the center line of the engine through the prop HUB.

[Gman]

I never fly in game at 650, typically around 200 or 175 as well.  I'll try your suggested tests today with the beta and see what happens.

Any round from any barrel starts dropping the moment it leaves the barrel, the "loft" is just an effect based on where the sights are zeroed, which then affects the elevation the barrel has at various ranges.  Gravity always, always effects every round, unless the round has some sort of fin stabilizer which generates lift, which few do.  From 500 fps muzzle loaders to 5000 fps sabot rounds, they are all dropping as soon as they are flying on their own, it's just the perception of "loft/etc" the eyes get based on the sight to barrel elevation/depression deal - I realize you know this btw.  The effects seen in particular with the center-line mounted weapons in AH is fun to mess with IMO.

I didn't know that the elevation of centerline WW2 cannons couldn't be altered - is that true for not just L/W but for planes like the P38/P39 and so on?  I guess the P38 doesn't have a motor the guns are going through, so probably they could be messed with I'm guessing now that I think about it.  Edit - I guess the P39 as well, hah, keep forgetting that it has the motor in a weird spot too.

I wonder how accurate the installation of the L/W 109 motorkannon had to be from the factory, if it can't be adjusted really, accuracy would much depend on how it's finally put together I would think.

[bustr]

All fighters that had a cannon mounted to shoot through the prop HUB were locked inline with the center line of the engine. Or in the case of the P39, inline to the centerline that ran through the prop hub and parallel to the drive shaft. You wanted the recoil of the cannon inline with the centerline.

You can do a search in the wish list on my name and find an in depth wish full of pictures and data. The 109 family and Ta152, the IP harmonization of the Revi to the MG151\20 or MK108 motor cannon was set to look down to a point at 400m. In the case of the Yaks the 20mm dropped about 3 inches at 200m and the NS-37 about the same. That is why on the back of props there was a 200m mark to align your PBP1 reticle center to.

[Chalenge]

bustr, I revisited DSR + SLI today. On a 1920x1080 monitor I can push SLI to do DSR at 4k (3840x2160@60fps) and the view is absolutely beautiful. I can see why someone might want to set their system up like this and play games.  The only problem is that the tracers from tanks are gone beyond about 3k. So, if you are shooting long range you will never see where your rounds hit. It gets a little better if you leave AA off, but conventional thinking is that people want AA to make their games look better. I know that with DSR you don't need AA, but not everyone will pick up on that.

Anyway, what I was trying to do is downscale a 4k monitor to run at HD settings (1080p60) and still get the 4k look. Unfortunately, the GPUs have to work too hard to do this even with SLI. It looks great at 1080p, but the tracers are just gone.

I wish you could try it so you could see what gamma does for that situation.

[GrandpaChaps]

I've looked at what most of the tracers the guns shoot....look fine the way they are IMO...more then fine, think they look better then most games honestly.

Yep

[bustr]

Chalenge,

Fly level, then hold down on the trigger and do full slow sweeps of your rudder. This will spray tracers so you can see them out of the front quarter panels. You notice they are fine. It is only looking through the mask Waffle has applied to the view area for the bitmap file we call the gunsight, or the reflector plate glass. It is way too dark and should be "optically clear". Most of this would be cleared up in fighters if Waffle went for optically clear, and the two cases where the sun shade has been flipped up full or halfway, they should be removed like Waffle did for the Revi16.

The issue with cannon rounds from tanks, I have it sometimes and sometimes not. On zoom and un-zoomed at the 4 mile tank range on my gunnery terrain, I can see the tracer out to 4 miles.

It is possible now smaller monitors will have better results with tracers unless Hitech revisits the whole thing.

Below is probably the slightly gray effect Waffle is going for but ending up placing a sun filter on the clear glass instead.





From the cockpit of a spitfire around 1941 during a gun harmonization session. Even with old BW flim you can see how optically clear the reflector plate glass is.

[Chalenge]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the airplanes. In fact, I don't use tracers there.

Tanks I should be able to see the tracer all the way to impact, even if that impact is 30,000 feet away (10k). I can see it that far at 1080p, but if I squeeze 4k onto 1080p by using DSR, then the tracer disappears (really it is there, but impossible to see). On a 4k screen at 4k it is possible to see, though it is very tiny. If I use DSR and push 8k onto a 4k screen, then it's back to being impossible to see. Is it realistic to see a 75mm tracer at 6 miles? I think so. .50 cal? No, I think the game is accurate that far.

[Chalenge]

I decided this morning that I would provide a side-by-side comparison, so that you can see what I see. I'll do that after lunch, because I have a video uploading at the moment.

[Gman]

I don't mess with dynamic superduper res, but I do have 1440p and 4k monitors, and can attest to the fact that the higher the res goes over 1080p, the smaller/tougher the tracers are to see, both the dot/flare and the smoke trail.  They are very tough to pick up at 1440p on a 27" monitor, I can't imagine on a larger panel at 4k/DSR them being anything but nearly invisible right now.  Tracers off will be a popular option I think, for higher res players.

[bustr]

If there is a monitor size and\or resolution component to this, maybe Hitech can scale the tracers and other issues to the resolution detected by the game. The default mask to make the impression of glass for the reflector plate is too dark. Making that more transparent will clear up some of this.