No icons for AH3

[bustr]

Shift8,

Convince Hitech he will make more money changing AHIII into your game utopia. Otherwise you are telling paying customers if you could, you would throw them out of the game no matter that they are paying their bill to satisfy your distaste for how the game is presented.

Fighting with us is lame, you still have not convinced Hitech your desire for how the game should be presented is superior to how he is choosing to present it. If you don't like his presentation, go play DCS.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tac: Flip side sarcasim.

All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.

Sarcasm off:

I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

HiTech

[Wiley]

It's still about immersion with a level playing field.

Anyway, in the last version of the beta I DL'd, turning enemy icons off didn't work, so if that holds, I'm sure the AvA will fill up every night LOL.

So at the end of the day it really is about weakening your opponent. Why is it so hard to own that?

Wiley.

[shift8]

No, it's not a conspiracy against older players.  It is a quest to make eyesight, hardware choice, and monitor and video configuration the single most important aspect of the game.  It may not be a motivation, but it will be a side effect of whatever motivations you do have.

Realistic for the guy with an HTC Vive, or realistic for the guy playing on a 17 inch 720p monitor?  Or is it realistic for the guy playing on a 4k monitor where his dots disappear at range?

I have been playing low icon scenarios for around 9 years.  I understand how they work just fine thanks.

No, the real problem of no 6k icons is, some guys can see the dot at that distance, some guys can't.  This gives the guys that can see them an advantage over the guy that can't.  Eyesight and hardware setup should not be the difference between visible enemy and invisible enemy.

Oh, ok.  I thought what I was stating was that I don't believe your hardware and eyesight should be the determining factor between visible enemy and invisible enemy.

EDIT:  One other thing, how does it achieve this "realism" if not by making the plane out of icon range less visible to the enemy?  In other words, if you're saying it's not that you don't want the enemy to see you, then how is it that the icon not being there affects gameplay?

Wiley.

I am not on a quest to make certain hardware a major factor in the game. This has nothing to do with what I want. Configuring the game to work properly with many types of resolution and screen is something hitech can do without icon. Other games have done it. It has to do with how the game recognizes resolution and adjusts things proportional to it.

For example Wiley, I would not mind having perhaps icons out to 3k like in FSO. And then having the new mega icons out to 6k, and then after that the small dots. There is more than one way to solve this issue. Reducing the icon ranges is perhaps only part.

Also we have people playing this game with and withou track ir, different controls and joysticks, etc. You can only accommodate this so much. After a certain point you start to impact the game negatively to accommodate various fringes too much. This is an exercise in futility.

Some people will always have advantages over others Wiley. For every guy that cant see the tiny dots, there is also the dude with arthritis that cant fly the plane on the edge of the stall. There is also the guy that just cant process the data you give him etc. Spotting is a skill, just like anything else....

Ok, so you understand how the game works. It didnt seem like from the way you and others were arguing. If we are in agreement on how this would affect realism and tactics, then consider my words to be clarification for the sake of the audience.

On your last point: It is not the range at which you see the enemy that is wrong. 6km is well within human visual range. Icons also help compensate for monitor contrast issues, which no monitor on this earth currently overcomes. To that end, I have no issues with them. They also allow for IFF etc. The issue is that with the icons out to such a long range, it gives players unreasonable tactical SA.

1) instant knowledge of enemy numbers, disposition, closure, and aircraft type. And the Number of friends you have.

2) It does those things at ranges further than you could usually do them IRL.

3) This allows for unrealistic offensive and defensive decision making.

4)It means that ongoing fights are much easier to find, and the tactical decision to interfere made with too much knowledge.

I see no reason why we cant try to accommodate both groups here. We could have shorter range icons, and bigger dots out to 6k or something. That way we solve the over SA issues, and alleviate any strain some might have with spotting at perfectly reasonable ranges.

[shift8]

Shift8,

Convince Hitech he will make more money changing AHIII into your game utopia. Otherwise you are telling paying customers if you could, you would throw them out of the game no matter that they are paying their bill to satisfy your distaste for how the game is presented.

Fighting with us is lame, you still have not convinced Hitech your desire for how the game should be presented is superior to how he is choosing to present it. If you don't like his presentation, go play DCS.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tac: Flip side sarcasim.

All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.

Sarcasm off:

I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

HiTech

By your own logic, you fighting with me is lame. Do us a favor and stop.

[shift8]

So at the end of the day it really is about weakening your opponent. Why is it so hard to own that?

Wiley.

Wiley, I fail to see how he is trying to weaken his opponent if he is to subjected to the same changes.
You dont even know how well he or I or anyone sees. For all you know, he is legally blind.

[Wiley]

I am not on a quest to make certain hardware a major factor in the game. This has nothing to do with what I want. Configuring the game to work properly with many types of resolution and screen is something hitech can do without icon. Other games have done it. It has to do with how the game recognizes resolution and adjusts things proportional to it.

It is a side effect of your desire though.  Some people can't see dots at 6k.  You apparently can.  This gives you an edge.

For example Wiley, I would not mind having perhaps icons out to 3k like in FSO. And then having the new mega icons out to 6k, and then after that the small dots. There is more than one way to solve this issue. Reducing the icon ranges is perhaps only part.

Also we have people playing this game with and withou track ir, different controls and joysticks, etc. You can only accommodate this so much. After a certain point you start to impact the game negatively to accommodate various fringes too much. This is an exercise in futility.

None of those things are the difference between visible enemy, and invisible enemy.  Without icons, it is possible to be looking right at something and not be able to discern it, where another guy would.  That's not good gameplay.

Some people will always have advantages over others Wiley. For every guy that cant see the tiny dots, there is also the dude with arthritis that cant fly the plane on the edge of the stall. There is also the guy that just cant process the data you give him etc. Spotting is a skill, just like anything else....

And it's dependent most heavily on your hardware setup and configuration, secondarily on your eyesight.

Ok, so you understand how the game works. It didnt seem like from the way you and others were arguing. If we are in agreement on how this would affect realism and tactics, then consider my words to be clarification for the sake of the audience.

On your last point: It is not the range at which you see the enemy that is wrong. 6km is well within human visual range. Icons also help compensate for monitor contrast issues, which no monitor on this earth currently overcomes. To that end, I have no issues with them. They also allow for IFF etc. The issue is that with the icons out to such a long range, it gives players unreasonable tactical SA.

1) instant knowledge of enemy numbers, disposition, closure, and aircraft type. And the Number of friends you have.

2) It does those things at ranges further than you could usually do them IRL.

3) This allows for unrealistic offensive and defensive decision making.

4)It means that ongoing fights are much easier to find, and the tactical decision to interfere made with too much knowledge.

I see no reason why we cant try to accommodate both groups here. We could have shorter range icons, and bigger dots out to 6k or something. That way we solve the over SA issues, and alleviate any strain some might have with spotting at perfectly reasonable ranges.

I'm in moderate agreement about the amount of data available at range.  Type is a bit excessive at 6k.  Number of engines might make more sense.  Everybody should know there's something there at 6k though.

I'm not sure what accomodating both groups would look like.  Personally I like the "giant dot in AH3" you apparently don't like.  I'd like to see that from whatever range we see it at now until icon range, at least with fighters.  Bombers are easy enough to see when they start to render, but most fighters vanish to me between 6k and big dot range.

Wiley.

[Wiley]

Wiley, I fail to see how he is trying to weaken his opponent if he is to subjected to the same changes.
You dont even know how well he or I or anyone sees. For all you know, he is legally blind.

Because his "level playing field" means in a situation he'd be able to be seen in the current system, he has less chance of being seen.  It's not enough for him to make enemies less visible to him, he has to make himself less visible to them.

Wiley.

[bustr]

Shift8,

You are refusing to fight with the only person that matters. And he has held true to how he presents this game since I've been here going on about 15 years. Fight against his statement below, it is the only fight that matters because it is why the game has not been changed to your liking. You don't even fake trying to show how Hitech will benefit from what you want and maintain the most important part of his business in the face of unintended consequences. "Maintaining and improving his revenue stream"  while pissing off a majority of paying customers in the MA. The closest you come to it is identifying he is a programmer, and it would be just a part of what he does, so he can just do it.

In the end you are the only person fighting anything here, and it's posted below from Hitech in answer to another person asking for what you want. This while fighting with the forum instead of fighting with the creator of the game over how he chooses to present the game. You want the game changed, fight with Hitech. You could have simply wished for no Icons and walked away knowing he probably is not interested.

-----------------------------------------

Tac: Flip side sarcasim.

All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.

Sarcasm off:

I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

HiTech

[shift8]

Shift8,

You are refusing to fight with the only person that matters. And he has held true to how he presents this game since I've been here going on about 15 years. Fight against his statement below, it is the only fight that matters because it is why the game has not been changed to your liking. You don't even fake trying to show how Hitech will benefit from what you want and maintain the most important part of his business in the face of unintended consequences. "Maintaining and improving his revenue stream"  while pissing off a majority of paying customers in the MA. The closest you come to it is identifying he is a programmer, and it would be just a part of what he does, so he can just do it.

In the end you are the only person fighting anything here, and it's posted below from Hitech in answer to another person asking for what you want. This while fighting with the forum instead of fighting with the creator of the game over how he chooses to present the game. You want the game changed, fight with Hitech. You could have simply wished for no Icons and walked away knowing he probably is not interested.

-----------------------------------------

Tac: Flip side sarcasim.

All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.

Sarcasm off:

I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

HiTech

I already responded to that statement Buster. Clearly you didnt read it. You can keep posting that statement all you want. you really ought to get HiTech to pay you, for all the apologizing you do for the company.

[jimson]

So at the end of the day it really is about weakening your opponent. Why is it so hard to own that?

Wiley.

It shouldn't be so hard to understand that no one has an undue advantage if the settings are the same for all.

Talking to you is a waste of time. You are determined to believe what you want to believe, so go ahead with that.

[shift8]

It is a side effect of your desire though.  Some people can't see dots at 6k.  You apparently can.  This gives you an edge.

None of those things are the difference between visible enemy, and invisible enemy.  Without icons, it is possible to be looking right at something and not be able to discern it, where another guy would.  That's not good gameplay.

And it's dependent most heavily on your hardware setup and configuration, secondarily on your eyesight.

I'm in moderate agreement about the amount of data available at range.  Type is a bit excessive at 6k.  Number of engines might make more sense.  Everybody should know there's something there at 6k though.

I'm not sure what accomodating both groups would look like.  Personally I like the "giant dot in AH3" you apparently don't like.  I'd like to see that from whatever range we see it at now until icon range, at least with fighters.  Bombers are easy enough to see when they start to render, but most fighters vanish to me between 6k and big dot range.

Wiley.

It doesnt matter if I can see the dots not. If someone else cant, that is a personal problem they should deal with. The game should not be altered to accommodate every oddity under the sun. Should we make the planes easier to turn because someone has arthritis? Etc. Same goes with my suggest for the large dot over 3k. If you look right at a dot and dont see it, that is a skill issue. That person needs to learn how to scan.

Also this whole conversation about hardware setup is nearly pointless. If a person is still playing on a 720p screen and expect HiTech to make game changes for that, that is crazy. We have people playing this game who think everything should remain in the stone age just for their specific situation. HiTech should only make adjustments to accommodate the average hardware of the day. Right now that is 1080p or above. I mean where do you think this should stop? Do you think they should accommodate someone playing on a 480p CRT? What about people who have bad joysticks? Etc ETc.

The eyesight issue is also silly in my estimation. Like all other games, this game should be designed for people who have normal vision. Not specially tailored to fit every person with bad eyesight, arthritis, ADD, neck cramps, back problems, or whatever ailment a person might have.

[Zoney]

It shouldn't be so hard to understand that no one has an undue advantage if the settings are the same for all.

Talking to you is a waste of time. You are determined to believe what you want to believe, so go ahead with that.

He was kind enough to discuss it with you even though as reality would have it, your idea is not a choice HiTech has made.  It isn't just him that feels that way, the vast majority knows it too and has seen your argument so many many many times they are not bothering to talk about it.

You know custom arenas were available for you and those that want no icons to set up and play in.  I just don't seem to be able to recall threads where you and those few that agree with you were inviting others to come play that way in anything like a regular basis.

You seem sincere and I certainly would not want to fault you for that sir.  If I may, those of us that have been here awhile know what we have here and enjoy it more or less as is.  I hope you can come to enjoy it also <S>.

[Wiley]

It doesnt matter if I can see the dots not. If someone else cant, that is a personal problem they should deal with. The game should not be altered to accommodate every oddity under the sun. Should we make the planes easier to turn because someone has arthritis? Etc. Same goes with my suggest for the large dot over 3k. If you look right at a dot and dont see it, that is a skill issue. That person needs to learn how to scan.

Or they should just stop being colorblind.

Also this whole conversation about hardware setup is nearly pointless. If a person is still playing on a 720p screen and expect HiTech to make game changes for that, that is crazy. We have people playing this game who think everything should remain in the stone age just for their specific situation. HiTech should only make adjustments to accommodate the average hardware of the day. Right now that is 1080p or above. I mean where do you think this should stop? Do you think they should accommodate someone playing on a 480p CRT? What about people who have bad joysticks? Etc ETc.

Nope.  But what I am saying is, depending what hardware you have affects how easy it is to see dots.  Regardless of how good or bad the hardware is, certain configurations are easier to see dots with than others.  You guys automatically assume when I'm talking about hardware, I'm saying the better your hardware is, the easier it is to see dots.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  In fact, a guy running on a 640 x 480 CRT can probably see dots a helluva lot easier than a guy running on a 4k screen.  My point is, regardless of what hardware you're running, it should not be the difference between visible enemy and invisible enemy.

You know what's a really excellent way to make people equally visible regardless of your hardware?  Icons.

The eyesight issue is also silly in my estimation. Like all other games, this game should be designed for people who have normal vision. Not specially tailored to fit every person with bad eyesight, arthritis, ADD, neck cramps, back problems, or whatever ailment a person might have.

Yeah.  Screw those guys. 

Wiley.

[Wiley]

It shouldn't be so hard to understand that no one has an undue advantage if the settings are the same for all.

Talking to you is a waste of time. You are determined to believe what you want to believe, so go ahead with that.

Except that varying hardware affects what can/can't be seen.  But you don't want to admit that that's a factor for some reason.  I don't understand why you guys won't accept the downsides of your choice, and just pretend they don't exist.  However you insist on throwing up words like "immersion" and "realism" to attempt to gain support.

Wiley.

[jimson]

He was kind enough to discuss it with you even though as reality would have it, your idea is not a choice HiTech has made.  It isn't just him that feels that way, the vast majority knows it too and has seen your argument so many many many times they are not bothering to talk about it.

You know custom arenas were available for you and those that want no icons to set up and play in.  I just don't seem to be able to recall threads where you and those few that agree with you were inviting others to come play that way in anything like a regular basis.

You seem sincere and I certainly would not want to fault you for that sir.  If I may, those of us that have been here awhile know what we have here and enjoy it more or less as is.  I hope you can come to enjoy it also <S>.

You seem to misunderstand. I have never advocated a no icon game in the MA.

I am only defending those that enjoy a NO ENEMY icon game in the AvA, from the unfair accusations that they are only seeking an advantage over other players, that's all.