Author Topic: Someone's definition of success...  (Read 5152 times)

Offline Shane

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2022, 01:52:17 PM »
I'll post two films that will show you from my perspective.  To fully appreciate it it, you'll need to view it several times at slow speed from both internal and external perspectives (both mine and judge's.)

You'll see my film showing him firing either *after* he passes me, or with no potential solution and then me taking damage shortly after (when I would normally clear from guns solutions on me - or nrshida.)

By trying to apply my "normal" timings, judge's latency throws that off in his favor given most time he engages with an advantage already.  So, the fancy skitter aside move I just did hasn't been seen on judge's end - he's shooting at my "ghost plane (his front-end views with the server) that because of his latency in receiving/transmitting positional updates hasn't gottten around to doing that fancy move I just did and because of his transmitting latency, he's closer than I thought he was and able to hit my un-fancy moving plane from his view (totally legit, just a distressing visceral reminder that latency still exists, and judge is an outlier with his.)

And if you've been paying attention, I've been calling out judge's latency issues for the past few months - he takes it pretty well, but it does give him inherent advantages that many mistake for either a hack or mad skills, when it's latency plus decent skills plus a bunch of other factors that work in his favor (shrug).   He's not the only one, just the most successful one.

OTOH, high(er) latency also benefits in HO situations, and I think that post earlier summed it up well.  Latency has always been an issue I'm aware of since it's all about timing and mental/sight pictures.

When I was last regularly playing years ago, the avg latency was around 200-300ms with some pacific players hitting 500ms. HTC's smoothing code (that patent thing) leveled the field quite a bit at the time and over the years, but I don't think it has kept pace with the much better connections now where the average maybe be around 50-60ms and the less robust connections can still hit 150-300ms.

Is judge unplayable against?  No, not if you can id him and be aware (SA) but it's not something overly fun since he will run at the slightest whiff of losing his advantages.  Been there, done that.

Anyway.. the films... hang on let me clip them to smaller size and pinpoint some of the film times to look at. Let me know if they make sense or if I need to break them down further.  I'll post in the films forum. They're fairly recent, too.


Shane help me out here. I understand net lag with all having a good connection. I don't understand a laggy connection how it becomes an advantage.  I would think there would be warping which I see occasionally with planes.  Maybe once a day with one particular plane.  Though there have been days where it is more prevalent.

Do you mean a slow connection compared to the average connnection speed ?  If so, walk me through it so I can understand how that becomes an advantage.

A film with an explanation would help. How it changes the dynamic on a co-alt merge etc.

BTW when flying a dora which I suck at, I'm a FW weenie  :D
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Offline Eagler

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2022, 02:30:09 PM »
He doesn't use tracers right?

They always seem to hit late on me

Eagler
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Offline nopoop

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2022, 02:40:23 PM »
Great explaination shane !! Now it makes sense. That explains bullets in the tower when I die sometimes.

I'm wifi and have a rock solid 60ms connection with jumps on very rare occasions. That also explains why I lose 99% of headons.

I suppose you could game it with a dial-up connection if it still available..

Thats amazing, coming in on dive on a low con with you having a slow connection you would be shooting at a ghost before he breaks, when he broke at the correct time.

Looking forward to the films.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 02:46:24 PM by nopoop »
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Offline Eagler

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2022, 02:57:02 PM »
Wifi playing a h2h internet computer game?

I would think being wired would immediately improve your performance

Eagler
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Offline Lazerr

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2022, 05:01:02 PM »
The guy really is more of an annoyance than anything.. I couldn't imagine being a newer player and being on the receiving end of his "tactics"  and connection issues.

Most of the time she runs from me, until I engage someone with a bigger pair. 


Offline nopoop

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2022, 06:44:41 PM »
I find this thread very informative !!

Eagler what is your connection speed being hardwired ? Curious how much better it is. Like I said I'm a rock solid 60ms with wifi. I paid extra for 50meg downloads.

So..

In effect, if you have high latency, but it is a "good" connection, you are not going to warp to be seen by other players.  In the game the way "you" see it is, planes are not breaking when they should, you always see them breaking too late.

If you have high latency, will other planes warp on your FE ? Or being that you have a good connection but slow, they won't ? I always thought that lost packets was the main cause.

Good stuff fellas. Good thread.

Shane you got those films ?
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Offline Shane

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2022, 07:39:18 PM »
Digging for them - deleted a bunch about 2 months ago and haven't engaged judge much since.

latency = ping time to server and back, no warps involved.  My ping times bounce from 30ms to 33-34 to sometimes 40ms - pretty stable within that range.

warps = a variety of causes that disrupt/lose the info packets transmission - could be your computer, the internet or the server.

I find this thread very informative !!

Eagler what is your connection speed being hardwired ? Curious how much better it is. Like I said I'm a rock solid 60ms with wifi. I paid extra for 50meg downloads.

So..

In effect, if you have high latency, but it is a "good" connection, you are not going to warp to be seen by other players.  In the game the way "you" see it is, planes are not breaking when they should, you always see them breaking too late.

If you have high latency, will other planes warp on your FE ? Or being that you have a good connection but slow, they won't ? I always thought that lost packets was the main cause.

Good stuff fellas. Good thread.

Shane you got those films ?
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798

Offline -gg-

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2022, 07:44:51 PM »
I'll take any of you on one versus one if you guys want to duel.
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Offline -gg-

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2022, 07:46:13 PM »
And if it's world war 1 I'll probably hand you your arses.

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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2022, 09:47:34 AM »
It's hard for me to appreciate players who fly E mode in the fastest planes in the game. These types of planes like the 190D. It makes little since that one of the most successful and fastest planes in WW2 is not perked. As you can see that a skilled BnZer can take advantage of the players with no risk. When a player gets over 1,000 kills a month with a low population, it does have an impact on player #s. It also creates more players who fly the same way, thus making the air combat atmosphere stale. I know Judge is a pretty decent stick, but hiding behind a 190D just makes it look like he needs a crutch to have advantage over other players.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2022, 10:14:10 AM »
I played for years tethered to my iPhone which I had to deselect LTE but use 4G for a consistent connection latency of 400ms which is about 150ms slower than dial-up and nobody complained of me warping.   

Offline Shane

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2022, 11:43:58 AM »
Here you go.  These aren't the best examples, but they're typical.

https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,365206.msg5379352.html#msg5379352


Thats amazing, coming in on dive on a low con with you having a slow connection you would be shooting at a ghost before he breaks, when he broke at the correct time.

Looking forward to the films.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798

Offline nopoop

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2022, 01:02:40 PM »
Not as dramatic as I thought it would be but see the delay when slowed down.

On being on the receiving end  of a pick a last second break would show very well lag that would show the advantage.

Good stuff Shane, thanks
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Offline Shane

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2022, 01:32:32 PM »
Yeah, not the best examples.  I've had a few in past where it's more clear he's shooting further behind. 

Not as dramatic as I thought it would be but see the delay when slowed down.

On being on the receiving end  of a pick a last second break would show very well lag that would show the advantage.

Good stuff Shane, thanks
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798

Offline morfiend

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Re: Someone's definition of success...
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2022, 10:50:49 AM »
I wish we had that sign you see in side view mirrors of car… things are closer than they appear.

  When working with a player I always suggest they break early,yes it might give away your first move but it’s better than being shot. On your end when you look back you might see the enemy at D1000 but he might see you at D600 on his end.

These are just examples as there’s no way to know what the other player sees on his end and he has no way of knowing what you see on your end. Your ping might be a steady 60 to80ms and the other player could be having a ping of 200ms,the lag is the total of the 2 so about 260ms or just over 1/4 of a second of total lag. Then factor in the speeds and directions and there could be several 100 yds difference between what either player sees.


YMMV.