Question for real pilots

[Gman]

I’ll try the 100% on my warthog.

In game, I tend to use flaps for better turn performance and leave trimming to the fight approach when trimming nose down for “bump” dampening.

Ref the RL question, the F-15 has an auto trim system the takes load off the controls wherever the pilot places the stick.  Safe to assume the same with the F-16, and follow on shiny new jets.  In both the F-106 and F-4, there was 3,000 psi hydraulic pressure helping the effort so, no real trimming was needed in a dogfight.  Trim was mostly used in formation air refueling, instrument approaches, etc where a light touch was required.

In the F-4, I was taught in Korea to drop the first notch of flaps when going up in the vertical with full AB selected chasing the other guy.  Then, stay tucked in close in his deep six and force him to keep going vertical, bleeding speed, and trying to see where  I was.  Eventually, his airspeed would be pegged and he would start rolling to see where I was, lose lift, and roll off, nose down in AB to regain flying speed. With my flaps already out, there was more controllable nose authority, allowing me to bring an AIM-9 to bear, and send one (simulated of course) up his tailpipes. 

The F-106 had elevons (no flaps).  So, every approach was a single engine, no flap event.  With the huge delta wing, a “Six” could produce one spectacular bat turn.  Then, it was nose down in full AB to regain speed, which it did expeditiously.  The “ Six” did fast, very well.

Flying Crazy Horse 2 several times, the first notch of flaps produces the best turn rate assistance without bleeding a lot of speed.  The Mustang requires constant manual trim in all three axis as flight conditions change. Definitely flys nicer when trimmed up.

Ahhhhh, such fun memories.

I'm friends on FB with Mark Berent, a Vietnam era F4 pilot, did you ever run into him in the USAF Puma?  He described similar things about the F4 in terms of fighting the Mig17,19, and even the 21.

Leviathan here gave me his stick settings when I was flying the Spit5 with him a lot, I'll see if I can find them and post them, but it was a pretty conventional very low at the start of the axis to maxed out on the last one sort of line.  Having a "non bouncy" stick set up is so critical to increasing your accuracy while shooting in this game.  I like having as much precision as I can program into that area right around the start of any stick pressure, so I can make very fine adjustments quickly to my sight picture/nose position (same thing really IMO).  For 2 decades plus I swore by the CH Fighterstick, now I'm using the VKB GF as the Virpil Warbrd is too high by about 3/4 of an inch on a desk/tabletop mount for me.  Gunfighter is fantastic, even more precision than the Fighterstick, and I didn't think that was a possibility.   

Puma - the "sim which must not be named" just had a F106 mod made for it that looks excellent, haven't tried it out yet myself, but looks like a ton of work was put into it.

[AKIron]

If you want to observe pio try air refueling.

[Animl-AW]

no nose bounce for me ...old CH FighterStick. I do use a bit of dampening because i used to have trouble with "dont move your controls rapidly".

Overall i have found that a bit of scaling and dampening has improved my issues with pulling on the stick as I fire which was causing mini movements. I have never noticed nose bounce at all though.

I remembered and changed putting my trigger on my throttle. Had same issue. One of the failures in sniping with a rifle, or hand gun, is when you pull the trigger. Chances are yank that trigger and your round is off target. It takes habit of muscle memory to just use the tip of the finger. Some will tense their whole grip and blow the shot.

Good example I have,
On my .50 cal rifle i have two triggers. The front one can set the rear as hair-pin trigger. With no scope and HP invoked I can lay the round center target from 250’. Normal action puts me off center or worse.

Putting my AH trigger on throttle removes multi action when dispatching rounds.
I finally remembered I did that about two mos ago. <blank stare> ugh!

[Lazerr]

I use a mouse and always have.. never experienced nose bounce.

A mouse dweeb has to think nose bounce has got to be an E killer.

[BigR]

I remembered and changed putting my trigger on my throttle. Had same issue. One of the failures in sniping with a rifle, or hand gun, is when you pull the trigger. Chances are yank that trigger and your round is off target. It takes habit of muscle memory to just use the tip of the finger. Some will tense their whole grip and blow the shot.

Good example I have,
On my .50 cal rifle i have two triggers. The front one can set the rear as hair-pin trigger. With no scope and HP invoked I can lay the round center target from 250’. Normal action puts me off center or worse.

Putting my AH trigger on throttle removes multi action when dispatching rounds.
I finally remembered I did that about two mos ago. <blank stare> ugh!

i tried the trigger on throttle thing a long time ago but never got used to it. It definitely is a good way to get rid of that pull action on the stick though. I may try again.

[Animl-AW]

i tried the trigger on throttle thing a long time ago but never got used to it. It definitely is a good way to get rid of that pull action on the stick though. I may try again.

Ya, another muscle memory thing. Once in a while I accidentally pull trigger instead, followed my a lot of fowl words. It takes a while, once it clicks its a good option.

I’m pretty much a flyin train wreck in motion.

[Gman]

I remembered and changed putting my trigger on my throttle. Had same issue. One of the failures in sniping with a rifle, or hand gun, is when you pull the trigger. Chances are yank that trigger and your round is off target. It takes habit of muscle memory to just use the tip of the finger. Some will tense their whole grip and blow the shot.

Good example I have,
On my .50 cal rifle i have two triggers. The front one can set the rear as hair-pin trigger. With no scope and HP invoked I can lay the round center target from 250’. Normal action puts me off center or worse.

Putting my AH trigger on throttle removes multi action when dispatching rounds.
I finally remembered I did that about two mos ago. <blank stare> ugh!

i tried the trigger on throttle thing a long time ago but never got used to it. It definitely is a good way to get rid of that pull action on the stick though. I may try again.

For years, shooting instructors, even at the best schools out there, focuses SO much on fire control (trigger press), and that being the critical part of making accurate shots, pressing that trigger in just that "proper" way.

Shrek McPhee, the best instructor I was trained by (friend and co worker of AH member WpnX, US army SF/SMU etc), has flipped the script around, as we've ALL been putting the cart before the horse.  I'm talking EVERYONE at the higher level small arms fighting/shooting schools, from my alma mater (Sig Sauer Academy), to Rogers shooting school, Thunder ranch - ie everyone, has adapted to this new training method -

Fire control/trigger press is actually irrelevant.  Your stance/position, and most critically your grip on your firearm, is what truly matters.  Keep that stance/grip perfectly isolated with regards to your sight picture, and I can stand/prone/whatever beside you, stick a pen in your trigger guard, and whack your trigger silly, and you'll shoot the best groups, hits, etc.  The focus has now become this - instead of focusing on making a great trigger press, and your secondary consideration being your grip/position, now it's about primarily keeping your position/stance/grip/sight alignment, as perfectly aligned as you can, and letting the trigger press happen as it needs to.

It's the same as shooting in this sim, or any sim - not having your sight picture/alignments be effected by your trigger press.

The idea to move the trigger to your throttle, IMO is actually a good way to get the mentality of what I'm describing.  Right hand/stick keeping the best alignment you can do, and isolating the trigger from that hand, in order to have a disconnect from the trigger press physically.  IMO after shooting that way for a short time, you would be able to move the trigger back to you right hand stick trigger.  Some may not benefit from this as much, but doing it is never the less a valid thing to try in order to see its effect on your shooting.

Great thread, interesting.  BigR, you were such a force in terms of E and angles fighting, I remember once you giving me tips on the P51 back in the 13th TAS days, and it did a ton for me back then.  Hope to see you in the air some time here.

I'll link in a couple brief videos on this subject that are on Youtube.  John McPhee was the best shooting instructor I've trained with, and his emphasis on your grip/stance over the trigger press is demonstrated in a couple vids.



The relevant info is at around 3:44 in this one.

[Oldman731]

Nice advice, Gman, thanks.

- oldman

[Animl-AW]

For years, shooting instructors, even at the best schools out there, focuses SO much on fire control (trigger press), and that being the critical part of making accurate shots, pressing that trigger in just that "proper" way.

Shrek McPhee, the best instructor I was trained by (friend and co worker of AH member WpnX, US army SF/SMU etc), has flipped the script around, as we've ALL been putting the cart before the horse.  I'm talking EVERYONE at the higher level small arms fighting/shooting schools, from my alma mater (Sig Sauer Academy), to Rogers shooting school, Thunder ranch - ie everyone, has adapted to this new training method -

Fire control/trigger press is actually irrelevant.  Your stance/position, and most critically your grip on your firearm, is what truly matters.  Keep that stance/grip perfectly isolated with regards to your sight picture, and I can stand/prone/whatever beside you, stick a pen in your trigger guard, and whack your trigger silly, and you'll shoot the best groups, hits, etc.  The focus has now become this - instead of focusing on making a great trigger press, and your secondary consideration being your grip/position, now it's about primarily keeping your position/stance/grip/sight alignment, as perfectly aligned as you can, and letting the trigger press happen as it needs to.

It's the same as shooting in this sim, or any sim - not having your sight picture/alignments be effected by your trigger press.

The idea to move the trigger to your throttle, IMO is actually a good way to get the mentality of what I'm describing.  Right hand/stick keeping the best alignment you can do, and isolating the trigger from that hand, in order to have a disconnect from the trigger press physically.  IMO after shooting that way for a short time, you would be able to move the trigger back to you right hand stick trigger.  Some may not benefit from this as much, but doing it is never the less a valid thing to try in order to see its effect on your shooting.

Great thread, interesting.  BigR, you were such a force in terms of E and angles fighting, I remember once you giving me tips on the P51 back in the 13th TAS days, and it did a ton for me back then.  Hope to see you in the air some time here.

I'll link in a couple brief videos on this subject that are on Youtube.  John McPhee was the best shooting instructor I've trained with, and his emphasis on your grip/stance over the trigger press is demonstrated in a couple vids.

I'm a former avid deer hunter under the 1 shot 1 kill law.

All my rifles have/had a strap.  My stock arm (left) I run through the strap so it one wrap around my arm. This gives me tight stability when I can pull it into my body as the strap tightens as if the gun was part of my arm and body. My trigger hand (right) doesn't even have to really grip to hold the gun, which gives my finger more relaxed soft touch control. Of course heart rate and breathing plays a role. These are things that work for me.

SO I GUESS this goes along with the stability of the stance.

My Colt Python .357 magnum, 6" barrel, was just made for my hand. A lot for people who fire it prolly have the same experience. It's very easy to get that stable stance because of the superb balance. You're not fighting weight as much as you might think. It's got that big nose up kick, you're not going to rapid fire, but that barrel is so damn good your first round is going on target, #2 is just a back up. That round literally goes where I'm looking, scary. That hollow point magnum is a house wrecker.

I've fired guns and hunted since 10 yrs old. So stance to me is just a given, sub-conscience. As you stated most people go straight for the trigger finger and breathing. I don't think of the newbie, it gets left out.

But ANYWAY, ya.... with a twisty stick you're already pulling and holding 2 angle combinations, I eliminate the 3rd by throttle trigger. For me it helps a lot, especially for longer shots. Nose bounce is my enemy.

Chances are, I'll finally get this stick set right and then decide to get the Virpil. <shrug>

Been out of the loop so long I have to dig through layers of memory to start remembering what I used to do, like manual trim. Some replies caused memory triggers. Good input.

[Animl-AW]

I don't think I  get nose bounce with my warthog ... the stick is set to 100% across the board

RL and gamer pilot question..

When you are in a rope climb do you trim?

If so which way(s)?

Thanks Eagler ✌️

I just toggle CT off in vertical. I have to get back into manual, so I don't have a correct answer. Before my PC got burnt, I was only getting 5-6 hr per week in the air, so my return to normal is a bit longer than normal. I'll prolly get back up to par the day before AH shuts down.

[Vraciu]

If you want to observe pio try air refueling.

"Wiggle your toes."

[Skyyr]

...

[FLS]

...

Is nose bounce a natural occurrence in RL?
...

Does it always happen when you fly or just when you're trying to aim at a moving target?

CAS flew two combat tours and he said gunnery was like duck shooting with a .22 while standing in a rowboat in choppy seas.

[Animl-AW]

Does it always happen when you fly or just when you're trying to aim at a moving target?

CAS flew two combat tours and he said gunnery was like duck shooting with a .22 while standing in a rowboat in choppy seas.

Usually when I’m narrowing my aim on a moving target, especially when I’m on a 6 because I’m using center stick trying to make a precise shot. For me its stick issues that really trigger it. I get more turn shots because I’m off center. In a nut shell, bad center stick triggering bad bounce in the game combo.  For what ever reason worse in a 51, A5 seems better. Lits of varibles that should not be there. Or I just think it shouldn’t. Why I asked. It just doesn’t seem natural. But it sure is aggravating. I prolly lose 30% of my kills due to it. It used to be much worse until Fugi helped me with it. I’ve got game settings about as good as I can get.

There was no bounce in AW. I was much better. I had a feeling it was game induced. Its over done. Probably screws a lot of people up.

I see a lot of films. Some of these guys the sight just lays right on target, as it should, and that’s that.

My point above, I know how to fire guns well. Which makes it more humiliating.

I get most kills in a turn, don’t even see the plane anymore.

If I’m just flying around I don’t notice it, take aim center stick and its almost useless.

[FLS]

There is no bounce in a lot of sims, even though you are maneuvering a heavy machine supported by air. Aiming is harder in AH because the flight model is better.

Scaling the stick changes the control inputs. It doesn't change the aircraft response to input. That tells you that the problem is the input. In other words, it's the pilot.  A longer stick makes fine adjustments easier but you only need that fine adjustment for part of the stick travel. Scaling the stick is a fix for it's short length.