Author Topic: Question for real pilots  (Read 7220 times)

Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2024, 12:51:27 PM »
If moving your controls rapidly distorts your attitude, motion, and position, to other aircraft via the net code then I expect some dampening to those controls would help to alleviate that.
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2024, 12:54:52 PM »
If you can't apply a curve via AH to help with nose bounce then you probably can with the software made for your stick. If not then you certainly can with vjoy and UCR.

You can determine if it's you causing the bounce by using the keyboard to fly and shoot. Does it bounce? If not, it's you.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 12:57:55 PM by AKIron »
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2024, 01:02:11 PM »
If you are using a twist rudder stick when you pull the trigger you give a slight rudder input,it’s difficult to not impart some input. I usually suggest some deadpan on the rudder axis to help reduce this unwanted input.

Open the clipboard and go to the rudder axis advanced setting,where you adjust the scaling and watch the “raw” scaling window and do some trigger pulls. You’ll notice the slider moves and if you watch the raw numbers beside the axis assignment you will see them change. This is what is causing the nose bounce.

Of course if you use rudder pedals you usually don’t have the issue,maybe some slight up and down movement as you pull the trigger but again a little deadpan will reduce or remove this. Deadpan is the center of the axis,think of it like this as you increase deadpan you increase the size of the centering circle from a dime size [as an example] to a nickel to a quarter etc. this can remove the unwanted initial movement that pulling the trigger can cause.

CT can also cause issues as it doesn’t take in consideration the use of flaps so it always has some nose up trim when flaps are deployed which you fight against and this can cause the dreaded nose bounce to happen when you’re trying to shoot the bad guy in the back.


BTW I keep all my sliders at 100% in roll axis,in pitch I have the first 3 from the left at 85,90 and 95 then the rest at 100%,for yaw [rudder] I use some scaling using the first 5 sliders starting at 60% and working up to 100% with both some deadpan and dampening as my 20 yo pedals really need to be replaced and this tends to smooth them out somewhat.


  <S>

Yep rudder is clamped good for that very reason. Its too sensitive on my stick. I want rudder when I want rudder, no other time. Another reason I move trigger to throttle. It just removes that issue. X axis (Ailerons?) is heavily scaled, dead band and dampening. Y acis is not touched, I like the snap roll in 51D and A5.

i think gimbal styles are the issue.the style of the x52 wares out. Replacing the white lube/grease made a difference in smoother travel.

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2024, 01:19:38 PM »
I say it is due to Combat Trim.  That's the only real difference across the board IMHO.

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2024, 01:21:32 PM »
Sounds like a lot of people had a bad experience with nose bounce 🤔

Could you post your stick type and setting for AH? Watching your videos shows that your one of those smooth flyers, it also shows why you have such a good shot. Id be interested in seeing what you use.

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2024, 01:25:16 PM »
Dose anyone understand the scaling setup in AH and can they explain how it really works?

I, like many before and after me have messed with the scaling system for our joysticks. While I dont really know how/why things work I mess around with the sliders and fly a few flights, them mess with them again, and repeat time and time again until I find something that "feels" good. What Id like to be able to understand is how it works and how its all tied together so I can come at it a bit more logically. Anyone can build a chair trying over and over again until they get it ok, but if you know how a ruler, level, protractor, and a square all work together you can do a better job first shot.

Dead Band we know is a "dead" space in the input of the stick. The higher the slider, the bigger the circle of "dead" space from the center of the stick out. Dead space = zero input.

Damping slows the response of the input. If it takes one second to go from 0 degrees input to full deflection with your joystick (stupid numbers I know  :huh), by adding damping, sliding the slider all the way up, you can slow that time down to say 5 seconds for full deflection. Is this damping over the FULL deflection of the axis? Can it be adjusted for say only a certain section of the axis? Say I want to have it slower in the fine movements as Im aiming my shot (instead of jerking the stick around over correcting due to "oldman syndrome" ) and crisp 1-1 input for maneuvering in flight.

Scaling sliders, Ive seen some odd setups with ascending sliders, level sliders, descending sliders and a dozen explanations on what they do or how to use them. Setup are very personal. Some players are very heavy handed (ME! ME! ME!) others very smooth. I have watched films of players and they are so smooth maneuvering for a shot, you can see the "unload" and the burst cuts a plane in half. the only time I come close to that is when I sneak up on a bomber. The rest of the time when they same "cone of fire" I pretty much fill the whole cone!

What are the sliders doing? are they in effect creating a damping effect 10% of the sticks movement to input at a time? On the HTC site it says "It is recommended that you avoid setups that make large jumps in adjacent columns." So if I set the first 3 sliders low to try for a slower input for fine control (if that is how it works  :rolleyes:) then putting the other 7 straight across the top will cause an issue, and what would that issue be?

Personally I think "nose bounce" is caused by two things in the game. First, combat trim/on. With the auto trim working to adjust all the time for speed it can put your plane out of trim when your slowing during the battle and going for your shot. As your about to fire you may be in a nose up adjustment and be forced to push over to align your shot but now the combat trim is adjusting again causing you to correct your aim bouncing your nose all over the place. Watch your film diving on a group of bombers who are sleeping. I know my nose doesnt bounce at all in that condition and cutting off a wing doesnt surprise me.

The second I believe is stick adjustment. Some players are atuned to having the sliders all the way up and are very gentle on their stick (these are the guys STILL flying with the MS Sidewinder as they never wear out their equipment  :devil ), but Im thinking that number of players is very low. The rest of us need some sort of adjustment to our sticks. some guys either understand the setup, or just hit it right by luck. The rest of us stumble along poking and tweaking it forever never getting that "optimum" setup.

For me Id like to have my rudder movement smooth but not so quick that I can spin a 109 to reverse flight by hitting them full......
my X, and Y axies slow and steady when lining up for a shot but still responsive enough to make a zero dance the Cha-Cha

So ideally Id like it if someone could give me a full explanation of the how/why of the stick scaling process. One so I can fix my scaling better, and two to add to the Help Site I have for others to be able to undstand things in this game.

I can explain the way I understand it. Which could be flawed. It would take a while txt for proper wording.

 in a severe crude nut shell

As you said dead bands is much less or no data within that center stick circle size, which you size with the slider.

Dampening puts data flow in slow motion, not real time. This buffers stick jerking

Dampening cuts up the travel circle in many circles. Kinda like songs on vynal record. Each slider controls the sensitivity of each circle space. They start at center and get larger away from center, to outer travel. This is why the sliders should never have a zagged flow. Because you are traveling into the next circle space.  It has to be smooth.

No scaling is 100% data flow from center to outer travel.

Thats some pretty raw text, but you get the idea.
 

Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2024, 01:35:10 PM »
I just tested shooting using the keyboard. There is a very slight movement induced by the recoil but no bounce.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2024, 01:40:19 PM »
I say it is due to Combat Trim.  That's the only real difference across the board IMHO.

Agreed.
But I think another variable is type of stick gimbal. That has s lot to do with data flow and spiking.

There are many variables from stick to stick and player controlling it.
Sometime using a usb hub deluvers more orecise power.
Even stick LED like on x52 can affect it because they are resource hogs. Pretty, but hogs.

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2024, 02:00:54 PM »
A mouse doesn’t have physical axis paths/halls crossing at center stick. Its done with 100% data cords..

In sticks where physical parts axis crossing paths (center stick) is where it gets ugly. Interference can occur. Especially when magnetics is involved. We’ve heard of players using aluminum foil shield/barrier on cables blocking data leaks of things like wireless rf. So there are chances of data breaches happening.

Stick gimbals matter a lot.

My take on it.

Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2024, 02:09:02 PM »
If you have a dual stage trigger and want to run your axis through vjoy you could apply a very shallow curve to your pitch axis when the first stage trigger is pressed and held. This would then create very little stick output change for large stick movements so long as the first stage is held.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2024, 02:22:58 PM »
If you have a dual stage trigger and want to run your axis through vjoy you could apply a very shallow curve to your pitch axis when the first stage trigger is pressed and held. This would then create very little stick output change for large stick movements so long as the first stage is held.

As mentioned above. I just moved trigger to throttle. Much cleaner. Not as weird as it sounds once ya get used to it. Its like firing a gun remotely, 0 movement. I’m used to it. I tend to not spray n pray as much.

But, ya, thats prolly helpful in some cases to those who don’t want the move. Kind of a bandaid But then it could disturb another issue on that axis. The less data math being done, the better.

I think in terms if streamline and latency.

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2024, 02:33:01 PM »
Sounds like a lot of people had a bad experience with nose bounce 🤔

What Fugi said.

You have a lucky setup.

A good amount of people would be kicking more butt without it.

Its not a skill issue.  Its hardware and correct trim combo. Toggling CT helps, but I need to be more accurate manually. I need to find that honey spot with trim.


Offline Drano

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2024, 02:56:48 PM »
I noticed a lot less bounce when I got a Gunfighter a few years back. Even less after putting an extension on it. This one has an all metal gimbal and the action is super smooth unlike other sticks with a plastic gimbal. It's built more like a machine than a toy.You can adjust tension with a combo of springs and clutches as you like. Very precise. Also not cheap.  Plastic sticks all seem to suffer a bit of "stiction" stickiness in their action that is difficult to overcome. It translates into the game as jerkiness. Trying to lubricate them can make things even worse.

All my sliders are 100% in AH. Not scaling in other sims either.

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2024, 03:01:06 PM »
If you have a dual stage trigger and want to run your axis through vjoy you could apply a very shallow curve to your pitch axis when the first stage trigger is pressed and held. This would then create very little stick output change for large stick movements so long as the first stage is held.

What is "vjoy"?

How does it work?

Does it work with AH?

Offline yipi

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2024, 03:08:43 PM »
I don't have bounce with pitch or roll. The thing I have to reduce down is yaw. I use the VKB software to reduce it down so I don't sway as much