Author Topic: Question for real pilots  (Read 6528 times)

Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2024, 03:12:05 PM »
It is a virtual joystick and should be seen by AH and anything else. It will show up in your list of windows Game Controllers (set up USB game controllers). By itself nothing is mapped to it and so it does nothing.  Download and install. Then you need another program like joystick gremlin or UCR (all free programs) to configure vjoy. You can map real device axis to vjoy buttons or real device axis to vjoy axis. Then use Gremlin or UCR modify the vjoy axis. I'll make a video. ;)
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2024, 03:15:35 PM »
What Fugi said.

You have a lucky setup.

A good amount of people would be kicking more butt without it.

Its not a skill issue.  Its hardware and correct trim combo. Toggling CT helps, but I need to be more accurate manually. I need to find that honey spot with trim.

I don't have a lucky setup. I've used multiple sticks and setups and never had nose bounce. I simply understand how inputs and input software work.

Most of what you see as "nose bounce" is really a form of PIO because of bad advice given on these forums.

You should never use scaling and there are very very few valid reasons to use dampening. These are crutches used to cover up poor input discipline and poor control of the aircraft. That sounds harsh, but it's the reality. By using these, all you do is delay the actual direct input you subconsciously associate with what should be correct. This in turn creates a constant chase of the you (the pilot) trying to correct the response of the aircraft, because your settings aren't a 1:1 correlation of your actual input.

Now some people may try to argue that their stick is broken or whatever and they need some adjustments for whatever reason. If your stick is broken or otherwise unmanageable without raw input, then you're starting with a faulty input base and nothing will work properly. You wouldn't drive with a broken steering wheel, you can't fly with a faulty or inaccurate stick.

Combat trim further exacerbates this issue because it's adding its own inputs while you're fighting with nose bounce/PIO. The pilot gets caught off-guard by the CT input changes and then fights those, in addition to the skewed control input because of scaling and dampening... and voila! You have AH nose bounce.

If you want to test this, then simply pull back on your stick and hold it there while flying. There will be zero nose bounce. Release the stick: no nose bounce. You will only experience nose bounce when trying to actively point your aircraft at something and hold it steady, because your putting input into the system and it's delayed, and now you're fighting it and experiencing PIO. Nose bounce is entirely PIO because players fluffied with their settings to compensate for poor control. This is why you should always use 1:1 control inputs (no scaling) and no/minimal dampening.

Now, if you insist on scaling and dampening, you can reduce nose bounce with more quality sticks, because they're smoother and you fight it less / overcorrect it less, but this is a bandaid because it's just removing another variable from the problem, it doesn't address the core of the problem.

My setup is simple: no scaling, no dampening, minimum deadzone. Combat trim is off.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 03:58:50 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2024, 03:21:26 PM »
I noticed a lot less bounce when I got a Gunfighter a few years back. Even less after putting an extension on it. This one has an all metal gimbal and the action is super smooth unlike other sticks with a plastic gimbal. It's built more like a machine than a toy.You can adjust tension with a combo of springs and clutches as you like. Very precise. Also not cheap.  Plastic sticks all seem to suffer a bit of "stiction" stickiness in their action that is difficult to overcome. It translates into the game as jerkiness. Trying to lubricate them can make things even worse.

All my sliders are 100% in AH. Not scaling in other sims either.

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That setup is my plan B. Great to know.

Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2024, 04:37:53 PM »
After I set this up to make this video I realized this specific process has a big caveat, revealed at the end. There may be another way to do this but I haven't spent the time to see. FWIW:

(may be a few mins for hd processing)

https://youtu.be/Fq2DpKAfqNg
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Offline uptown

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2024, 04:40:20 PM »
When I get to shoot my guns I shake and pee my pants  :old:
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2024, 05:05:18 PM »
There are a lot of things you can do with vJoy including eliminating the spiking from old sticks/pedals.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2024, 06:25:56 PM »
I don't have a lucky setup. I've used multiple sticks and setups and never had nose bounce. I simply understand how inputs and input software work.

Most of what you see as "nose bounce" is really a form of PIO because of bad advice given on these forums.

You should never use scaling and there are very very few valid reasons to use dampening. These are crutches used to cover up poor input discipline and poor control of the aircraft. That sounds harsh, but it's the reality. By using these, all you do is delay the actual direct input you subconsciously associate with what should be correct. This in turn creates a constant chase of the you (the pilot) trying to correct the response of the aircraft, because your settings aren't a 1:1 correlation of your actual input.

Now some people may try to argue that their stick is broken or whatever and they need some adjustments for whatever reason. If your stick is broken or otherwise unmanageable without raw input, then you're starting with a faulty input base and nothing will work properly. You wouldn't drive with a broken steering wheel, you can't fly with a faulty or inaccurate stick.

Combat trim further exacerbates this issue because it's adding its own inputs while you're fighting with nose bounce/PIO. The pilot gets caught off-guard by the CT input changes and then fights those, in addition to the skewed control input because of scaling and dampening... and voila! You have AH nose bounce.

If you want to test this, then simply pull back on your stick and hold it there while flying. There will be zero nose bounce. Release the stick: no nose bounce. You will only experience nose bounce when trying to actively point your aircraft at something and hold it steady, because your putting input into the system and it's delayed, and now you're fighting it and experiencing PIO. Nose bounce is entirely PIO because players fluffied with their settings to compensate for poor control. This is why you should always use 1:1 control inputs (no scaling) and no/minimal dampening.

Now, if you insist on scaling and dampening, you can reduce nose bounce with more quality sticks, because they're smoother and you fight it less / overcorrect it less, but this is a bandaid because it's just removing another variable from the problem, it doesn't address the core of the problem.

My setup is simple: no scaling, no dampening, minimum deadzone. Combat trim is off.

Good post Skyyr

I never used scaling or much of anything else. I only resorted to it when nothing else worked.

There is an issue, the stick was spiking real bad. Using a usb hub and turning of LEDs made a difference. I didn’t have to do that yrs ago. I just used it as you say 1:1. It was since I dragged it out 14 yrs later that it seemed wonky.. Some of the stick didn’t work. Every button was stuck. It took about an hour to break some things free again.

One axis wasn’t working until I moved it around for a bit. It took about a day of use before it got better.

Before using scaling, used hotas software to turn down sensitivity because crossing center in the stick it would spike hard. Which is the only place it bounces, off center no bounce.

I almost threw it away.

What I’m doing is absolutely a bandaid.

I A and B settings before settling on minimal.

X axis and rudder cause bounce, the only things I scale. Just moving the stick past center would bounce, slightest input to rudder it would sway back and forth.

Few weeks ago I reloaded the windows and game, went back to 1:1 no bounce off center, crossing center or rudder still fubar.

I THINK the stick is shot, I’m doing this to make it usable.

Had i had a fresh stick, I doubt I’d have to do anything. This stick wasn’t like this years ago.

When I get back up and running I’ll try manual trim with 1:1. I think CT is an issue.


Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2024, 06:52:25 PM »
I finally got Joystick Gremlin working and it handles the offset when switching axis profiles much better in this instance than URC.

https://youtu.be/LECwfPVxB4c
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Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2024, 07:13:04 PM »
Game sound too loud, deleting that video.

Made a new one.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 07:25:09 PM by AKIron »
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2024, 07:28:08 PM »
Interesting Iron
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 07:32:55 PM by Animl-AW »

Offline AKIron

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2024, 07:29:35 PM »
The game sound was louder than me. Couldn't hear me over it. I see that in a lot of youtube videos. If you're going to talk turn down the game sound.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 07:34:39 PM by AKIron »
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2024, 07:51:55 PM »
The game sound was louder than me. Couldn't hear me over it. I see that in a lot of youtube videos. If you're going to talk turn down the game sound.

Thanks for contributing and sharing.

Offline Tumor

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2024, 08:13:26 PM »
What is "vjoy"?

How does it work?

Does it work with AH?

In my experience... vjoy is a Trainwreck.  I know at least 2 who love it, and their controls are typically a trainwreck.  I'm sure results vary, but mine were as stated.

Just sayin
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 08:17:55 PM by Tumor »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2024, 08:27:45 PM »
What Fugi said.

You have a lucky setup.

The harder Skyyr practices the luckier he gets.

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Offline Drano

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Re: Question for real pilots
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2024, 09:02:21 PM »
I use vjoy to combine two logitech quadrants to make one 6 axis 18 button device. Use it for RPMs, mixture, etc.

Joystick gremlin was my answer to the problem of having multiple different brands of controllers to map, the logi quads, VKB stick, MFG peds and Virpil throttle. I just have them all set to base profiles in their respective softwares, Virpil's and VKB's are complicated but very powerful. I then have a profile set up in joystick gremlin tying all those devices together that uses the 5 position rotary switch on the virpil throttle to change the mapping on everything just by using that switch. So, 5 different maps on that common profile. I have all the buttons and axii mapped in joystick gremlin. Can go from one sim setup to another just by rotating that rotary switch. Pretty handy.

Then I started using Spad.Next to map MSFS which is a totally different animal. There just aren't enough key commands for some of those planes! Every button, switch and lever there uses a code string to operate it that can be tough to nail down. So, a blank map in joystick gremlin and all that stuff mapped in Spad. Cool thing about that software is it's aware what you're flying in MSFS and will auto select the proper map.

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