Author Topic: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.  (Read 2780 times)

Online The Fugitive

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2026, 02:03:29 PM »
Shame Chalenge isn't still around, he would have been able to do it for less.

Just keep him away from awkward questions... and snakes.

Challenge was the sound guy. I wish I had his FMOD setup. I have been messing around with the program and Im starting to get the hang of it. If I had his pack I think I could fix the issues with it.

Offline Dadtallica

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2026, 02:12:05 PM »
Yes it sounds like we are being mean but the development is not worth the squeeze.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2026, 02:19:23 PM »
Challenge was the sound guy. I wish I had his FMOD setup. I have been messing around with the program and Im starting to get the hang of it. If I had his pack I think I could fix the issues with it.

1) more sounds than you expect
2) some of what he did (bless his heart) were just not fixable. You need a consistent sound to make a loop. Any tiny flaw becomes a repeat annoyance. His 51 was a good example of this. There was a looping rattle, which wasn’t realistic.

If you plan on doing a 120 plane pack you’re talking about 400-450 sounds, or more, depending how deep you dig

I’ve gad FMOD setup for 4 years now. Perfect loops are the biggest chore. Then pistons running slow and fast.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2026, 02:20:24 PM »
Yes it sounds like we are being mean but the development is not worth the squeeze.

Considering the hours put in, you may be right. Current sounds are not bad.
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Offline Randy1

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2026, 03:04:39 PM »
You have to think back to the days when Hitech and staff were debating over a beer how to build AH.  That is what is foundation going to look like.  That is when the three country game basis would have come from.  Hitech must have predicted problems with a two-country game back then.  The reasoning behind that decision may still apply even today.

My guess is two country battles would be less dynamic than the rolling changes that happen with three countries.  There can be rapid changes in a three country system as player number changes, and two countries against one changes.  Also in a two country system if one country gets really dominate the game dies.  Now, two countries can gang up on the dominate country and beat them down.

I think the three country is not perfect but a two country system is a game killer.

Offline Dadtallica

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2026, 04:03:13 PM »
Back in the day countries used to work together to end maps or stop another country from holding one.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2026, 05:30:33 PM »
You have to think back to the days when Hitech and staff were debating over a beer how to build AH.  That is what is foundation going to look like.  That is when the three country game basis would have come from.  Hitech must have predicted problems with a two-country game back then.  The reasoning behind that decision may still apply even today.

My guess is two country battles would be less dynamic than the rolling changes that happen with three countries.  There can be rapid changes in a three country system as player number changes, and two countries against one changes.  Also in a two country system if one country gets really dominate the game dies.  Now, two countries can gang up on the dominate country and beat them down.

I think the three country is not perfect but a two country system is a game killer.

3 country massive  multiplayer was first in AW, where both HT and Pyro had played, before WB snd AH.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2026, 05:32:51 PM »

If it could be done doesn’t matter
The MA will never be 2 country

End of story
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2026, 06:38:38 PM »
I don’t come at these numbers and assumptions lightly. As a project manager by trade, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to map out what it would mean to do a lot of the things this community wishes to see happen. ChatGPT has made this even more detailed.

I have a project within GPT that I’ve been using for over 18 months now and a lot of chats are dedicated to plane sets and how to use them. You would be surprised what it can tell you it’s absolutely helped my ACM and all kinds of other gameplay things.

I also have a couple that do extensive research projects on these things. I’ve been working towards doing a wish list group to put context behind what is being asked. Some things are simple and would just require a couple parameter changes that could easily be done if philosophy were aligned. A lot of things, however, would take a coding push and infrastructure.

A switch to two countries only which is not something I think is a good idea anyway even if numbers continue to dwindle. It’s one of those things that just sounds great on paper.

But let’s say the desire was there and someone wanted to do it whether it was Dale or the next owner if there ever was one. This is what it would take. A play in ten acts…

        Rewrite the country-state logic. The core arena code would need every hard-coded three-country assumption changed to two-country logic, including ownership, enemies, switching sides, scoring, country messages, and database records. This is likely a 2–4 month senior-programmer task before map or balance work begins. Also, it’s important to remember that AH is not built on universal code. It is a highly proprietary engine, not a modular commercial game engine.
* Rebuild the strategic system. The current model expects 3 HQs, 3 cities, 3 factory networks, 3 supply chains, and 3 sets of dependent fields. Every strat relationship would need to be reassigned, tested, and rebalanced so one side does not gain twice the strategic depth or leave a third network unused.
* Replace the map-winning formula. Current reset and victory conditions are based on one country taking territory from two opponents while retaining enough of its own. A two-country system needs a new percentage threshold, minimum-base rule, and anti-stalemate logic, followed by repeated simulations to determine whether wars last 6 hours, 3 days, or never end.
*   The arduous work to convert and validate every Main Arena terrain begins. Every active terrain would need to be reviewed, redesigned, and rebalanced for a true two-country war because you can’t simply remove one country from a map designed around three fronts, three strat systems, and three starting positions. This would require significant community involvement from terrain builders and an estimated 2,000–4,000+ hours of terrain development, followed by extensive playtesting to validate that each map remains balanced, competitive, and capable of producing healthy arena resets.
* Retune population balancing. With three countries, two sides can naturally pressure an oversized country; with two, a 60/40 population split means 50% more players on the larger side. ENY limits, perk bonuses, side-switch rules, and possibly automatic balancing would all need redesign to prevent repeated steamrolls.
* Modify the user interface and supporting systems. Country-selection screens, clipboard colors, score pages, roster displays, squad affiliations, country channels, warning messages, and victory announcements all currently expect Bishops, Knights, and Rooks. This is not difficult individually, but it creates hundreds of small regression points across the client and server.
* Run a dedicated beta arena and large-scale QA program. Internal testing cannot reproduce how 100–150 live players exploit capture routes, population shifts, and map geometry. A realistic test program would require 8–12 weeks, multiple full map cycles, volunteer players, telemetry, and several balance revisions.
* Build migration and rollback plans. Squads permanently associated with the removed country would need reassignment, historical statistics would need preservation, and players would need rules for choosing new sides. The old three-country system should remain deployable until the new format survives at least 30–60 days without major failures.
* Restart a small development operation to complete it professionally. A credible team would include Dale as system owner, 1 senior gameplay programmer, 1 terrain specialist, 1 QA lead, and part-time UI/community support for roughly 6–12 months. Salaries, payroll burden, hardware, software, testing, management, and post-release support put a realistic professional budget around $400,000–$800,000, with seven figures possible if the company must be fully rebuilt.
* Evaluate the financial return on investment. Assuming approximately 800 paying monthly subscribers (about $144,000 gross annual revenue at $15/month. This was the most latest player estimate by statistical availability of the player base publicly. It’s not even known if it’s correct. Credit to Lusche), a $400,000–$1,000,000 development project would likely require growing and sustaining the subscriber base to roughly 1,500–3,500 paying users over several years to reasonably recover the investment while still covering normal operating expenses, making ROI one of the most critical factors in determining whether a major feature should proceed.

From the extensive research I’ve had completed. This is the best estimate of those things at a minimal or maximum cost and resources. And as any of you know for any project, especially one in the IT world two weeks means two months means hang on a minute.

I don’t like peeing in Cheerios, I just like the thought projects. I wanna see the biggest the best for this game just like the rest of you, but we may have already had it and have as much as we’re gonna get now. I’m cool with that.



« Last Edit: August 01, 2026, 07:26:12 PM by Dadtallica »
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Offline -gg-

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2026, 07:29:36 PM »
Now that you've put it that way, I could see that it could take between 600,000 and 5 million dollars to make one map that had two countries on it.

How much do you figure it took to make the axis versus allies map? Maybe around 3 million and 5 years of testing?

What about the current two-sided world war 1 map? That didn't even appear until recently. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars do you think Dale spent making that map?


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« Last Edit: August 01, 2026, 07:33:33 PM by -gg- »
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Offline -gg-

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2026, 07:30:14 PM »
.
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Offline Spikes

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2026, 07:34:31 PM »
Where is this two-sided world war 1 map?
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Offline Wiley

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2026, 08:06:45 PM »
Now that you've put it that way, I could see that it could take between 600,000 and 5 million dollars to make one map that had two countries on it.

How much do you figure it took to make the axis versus allies map? Maybe around 3 million and 5 years of testing?

What about the current two-sided world war 1 map? That didn't even appear until recently. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars do you think Dale spent making that map?


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Offline Lusche

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2026, 08:20:48 PM »
The war is already two sided. Just the maps are not.

It's prime time now, so it's late night for me, but I'm in the MA since hours. And all those hours there is basically no combat between Knights and Rooks. Apart from rare forays of a single Jabo or bomber or occasional BB duel, the is no combat between them, no attempts of capturing a field. Both countries are dog piling on the Bishops. For hours now.
Last time I was on during prime time it was the same, but this time it was the Knights getting smashed by Bishops and Rooks. For hours.
Yes, 20 years ago we had similar, but it never went on for that long, not 3,4 or even 5 hours during prime time. (And during euro hours, things are often worse).
(And IMHO the reason is not "lame donut players", but the low numbers, which prevents the creation of two separate fronts)


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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: On the technical feasibility of making a two-sided map.
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2026, 08:49:52 PM »
I don’t come at these numbers and assumptions lightly. As a project manager by trade, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to map out what it would mean to do a lot of the things this community wishes to see happen. ChatGPT has made this even more detailed.

I have a project within GPT that I’ve been using for over 18 months now and a lot of chats are dedicated to plane sets and how to use them. You would be surprised what it can tell you it’s absolutely helped my ACM and all kinds of other gameplay things.

I also have a couple that do extensive research projects on these things. I’ve been working towards doing a wish list group to put context behind what is being asked. Some things are simple and would just require a couple parameter changes that could easily be done if philosophy were aligned. A lot of things, however, would take a coding push and infrastructure.

A switch to two countries only which is not something I think is a good idea anyway even if numbers continue to dwindle. It’s one of those things that just sounds great on paper.

But let’s say the desire was there and someone wanted to do it whether it was Dale or the next owner if there ever was one. This is what it would take. A play in ten acts…

        Rewrite the country-state logic. The core arena code would need every hard-coded three-country assumption changed to two-country logic, including ownership, enemies, switching sides, scoring, country messages, and database records. This is likely a 2–4 month senior-programmer task before map or balance work begins. Also, it’s important to remember that AH is not built on universal code. It is a highly proprietary engine, not a modular commercial game engine.
* Rebuild the strategic system. The current model expects 3 HQs, 3 cities, 3 factory networks, 3 supply chains, and 3 sets of dependent fields. Every strat relationship would need to be reassigned, tested, and rebalanced so one side does not gain twice the strategic depth or leave a third network unused.
* Replace the map-winning formula. Current reset and victory conditions are based on one country taking territory from two opponents while retaining enough of its own. A two-country system needs a new percentage threshold, minimum-base rule, and anti-stalemate logic, followed by repeated simulations to determine whether wars last 6 hours, 3 days, or never end.
*   The arduous work to convert and validate every Main Arena terrain begins. Every active terrain would need to be reviewed, redesigned, and rebalanced for a true two-country war because you can’t simply remove one country from a map designed around three fronts, three strat systems, and three starting positions. This would require significant community involvement from terrain builders and an estimated 2,000–4,000+ hours of terrain development, followed by extensive playtesting to validate that each map remains balanced, competitive, and capable of producing healthy arena resets.
* Retune population balancing. With three countries, two sides can naturally pressure an oversized country; with two, a 60/40 population split means 50% more players on the larger side. ENY limits, perk bonuses, side-switch rules, and possibly automatic balancing would all need redesign to prevent repeated steamrolls.
* Modify the user interface and supporting systems. Country-selection screens, clipboard colors, score pages, roster displays, squad affiliations, country channels, warning messages, and victory announcements all currently expect Bishops, Knights, and Rooks. This is not difficult individually, but it creates hundreds of small regression points across the client and server.
* Run a dedicated beta arena and large-scale QA program. Internal testing cannot reproduce how 100–150 live players exploit capture routes, population shifts, and map geometry. A realistic test program would require 8–12 weeks, multiple full map cycles, volunteer players, telemetry, and several balance revisions.
* Build migration and rollback plans. Squads permanently associated with the removed country would need reassignment, historical statistics would need preservation, and players would need rules for choosing new sides. The old three-country system should remain deployable until the new format survives at least 30–60 days without major failures.
* Restart a small development operation to complete it professionally. A credible team would include Dale as system owner, 1 senior gameplay programmer, 1 terrain specialist, 1 QA lead, and part-time UI/community support for roughly 6–12 months. Salaries, payroll burden, hardware, software, testing, management, and post-release support put a realistic professional budget around $400,000–$800,000, with seven figures possible if the company must be fully rebuilt.
* Evaluate the financial return on investment. Assuming approximately 800 paying monthly subscribers (about $144,000 gross annual revenue at $15/month. This was the most latest player estimate by statistical availability of the player base publicly. It’s not even known if it’s correct. Credit to Lusche), a $400,000–$1,000,000 development project would likely require growing and sustaining the subscriber base to roughly 1,500–3,500 paying users over several years to reasonably recover the investment while still covering normal operating expenses, making ROI one of the most critical factors in determining whether a major feature should proceed.

From the extensive research I’ve had completed. This is the best estimate of those things at a minimal or maximum cost and resources. And as any of you know for any project, especially one in the IT world two weeks means two months means hang on a minute.

I don’t like peeing in Cheerios, I just like the thought projects. I wanna see the biggest the best for this game just like the rest of you, but we may have already had it and have as much as we’re gonna get now. I’m cool with that.

I get your end point, but it's not that big of a production. If i were estimating a job I may go that route to ensure I don't go over budget. I would not agree 600,000 for that.
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