Author Topic: Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read  (Read 2961 times)

Offline Habu

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #135 on: January 24, 2002, 10:19:49 PM »
Westy step back a bit and listen you what you are argueing. I am just about ready to solo in a trike (no cockpit at all) and if I am going to turn right or left I have to turn my head completely sideways to check the sky. There is no way I can see even half of whats in the field of view of AH.

The view in AH is fun to use and it works and allows you to track a plane without padlock but to say it is more real is not a valid argument.

If a pilot had on goggles his view would be even more restricted. In real life a pilot moves his head to follow a plane and keeps moving his head to check instruments. If he is looking down he will not see the guy breaking down from 12 high nor will he see the guy at 10 o'clock level if he is looking 2 oclock level. You cannot see the whole front view and instruments just by stareing straight ahead.

In a game you cannot simulate this so Padlock and wideview are two ways of getting around that.

To claim one is more real is not only wrong (neither is real) it is pointless.

You can argue that Padlock gives you an advantage if it locks on unseen planes. That is a valid point. You can argue that a wide field of view helps you line up shots easier. But don't say one is better because it is more "real".

Offline Thrawn

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #136 on: January 24, 2002, 10:36:25 PM »
Good stuff Smoo, that picture is much better.  

Unfortuately is disproves your point.  I'm sitting down right now, looking hortizonally across at my monitor.  If I look down, without moving my head, I can see almost see my crotch, although a bit blury.  As far as clarity is concerned, I can deflect my view downward, without moving my head, 70 degrees and it's picture perfect.  Try it yourself, see if you come up with something different.:D

Buddy in the picture only has to deflect his view by 32 degrees (yes, I used a protractor).  So the pilot does NOT have to move his head in order to see through the gunsight and look at his instruments.  He has to glance down, much like you have to in the view system of AH.

Ya know, with your love of realism and dedication to it, I think you would be quite at home here.

Offline SirLoin

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #137 on: January 24, 2002, 11:00:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Good stuff Smoo, that picture is much better.  

Unfortuately is disproves your point.  I'm sitting down right now, looking hortizonally across at my monitor.  If I look down, without moving my head, I can see almost see my crotch, although a bit blury.  As far as clarity is concerned, I can deflect my view downward, without moving my head, 70 degrees and it's picture perfect.  Try it yourself, see if you come up with something different.:D

Buddy in the picture only has to deflect his view by 32 degrees (yes, I used a protractor).  So the pilot does NOT have to move his head in order to see through the gunsight and look at his instruments.  He has to glance down, much like you have to in the view system of AH.

Ya know, with your love of realism and dedication to it, I think you would be quite at home here.
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Offline StSanta

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #138 on: January 25, 2002, 12:37:39 AM »
Hm, about the view thingy. The analogy of a car is useful, if somewhat limited.

I'd like to make another analogy or two, taken from real life experience of having to watch gauges.

First: skydiving. There are basically two places you practically can place your altimeter: on your chest in the chest strap, or on your hand. Students usually have it on the chest strap, as they have a tendency to move their hand when they want to check their alt, and as a newbie, that might make you unstable in the air. Veterans tend to have it on their left hand.

When it is on your chest, it is akin to having a "look down" key to check instruments in a WWII flight sim. You duck down your head, lose contact with the horizon, essentially losing your SA and bearings for a moment. Then you locate your altimeter, and then you try to find that needle which is very quickly going towards the red area. Actually locating the needle isn't effortless, because you've tucked down your chin and is trying to remain stable.

Alternatively, you have an altimeter on the back of your hand. When you want to check your current altimeter, you move your eyes slightly to the side, focus the quarter sized focus point (and that's all we humans have) on the altimeter, and you quickly pick up the needle. During this time, you've got complete cotrol of your position relative to the horizon and other skydivers in your formation. This is akin to having most of the instruments in forward view in a computer game.

Both are doable in ksydiving, of course. But in a plane, you don't tuck your chin down onto your chest and try to locate an instrument that is wobbling in a 220 km/h wind.

Scuba diving, another of my hobbies. I got my dive computer on my left wrist (so all the "obstruction points, i.e dry suit outlet etc are on one arm, making it easy to get out) and my pressure gauge I got clipped to my buoyancy compensator. Having more than a few dives below my belt, I can predict my air consumption depending on time, workload and depth - so I more often send a quick glance towards my dive computer, rather than locate my pressure gauge (which is at a very predictable place, but still out of view), tuck head down, and reads it.

I cannot imagine that in an environment where everything happens even faster than in skydiving, you'd wish for your pilot to have to "tuck down" very much - lose your bearings, even for a brief period. And when you have these "press key to check instruments, lose bearings" solutions, I find it to be impractical as well as misrepresentative of reality.

Oh, just one other thing - some chap mentioned that none of us had flown a 109K4, and therefore everyone of us could be right (that was the essence of his argument). I'd like to call the BS on that one - I haven't been shot, but I have a good idea of what it'd be like, or cause. I haven't burned my finger off, but I've burned it, and I know enough to say "that's BS" if someone tells me it's next to painless or will feel like an "icey" sort of pain.

That line of argumentation is fallacious - it's an attempt to reach absolute relativism (nice contradiction in terms, eh?), and then use *this* as an argument to suggest that the claimants point is actually less relative, and more right. Fun type of argument, really.

lastly, I wonder why this fighter ace chap spends so much time preaching to us, and taking cheap shots that aren't really insults, but surely are disrespectful, and at least in my eyes represent an attitude that is a wee bit offensive.

Perhaps he should go back to his own camp. We've heard you, we've listened, we've commented. There's little more to say.

Offline K West

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #139 on: January 25, 2002, 08:00:06 AM »
"here's little more to say."

 Agreed :)

 I was pretty much prepared to get more pictures, draw a few lines and offer a few more analogies and examples but I realised that even if you brought Smoo personally to a WWII fighter, had him sit in and to actually SEE the layout he'd still maintain that guages should be blurry and you need a seperate view.  That's the way of a dyed in the wool sycophant.

 What I see in the FAIII beta is a small group of players that are very much like a mirror image of IL2's 'Cult of Oleg.'  The FAIII developers all have similar credentials too!  Imagine that!! ;)   Unfortunately (for them more than anyone else)  FAIII is not any where near the artistic and profesional level of development that IL2 was in it's earliest beta release.

 At least the FAIII people aren't as detrimental nor the liability to thier game as the  WW2O 'fan boi' are.

  Westy
« Last Edit: January 25, 2002, 08:44:14 AM by K West »

Offline Habu

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #140 on: January 25, 2002, 08:21:24 AM »
Westy the gauges are sharp and clear. You can watch the rudder peddles move and the stick as you maneuver. If you saw blurry gauges then you have not seen the game in a long time.

Fan boy? Moi? I was one of the original fan boy bashers in WWIIOL. I told them their arrogant attitude and "Don't let the door hit you on the bellybutton on the way out" comments were going to drive the casual newbie out of the game.

I guess it took Chapter 7 (or was it 11) bankruptcy to waken up that community to the fact that the more people that play the game the more healthy the game will be.

Oleg is a very remarkable man and so is his IL-2 game. The FA 3 crowd is not in the least like that games community. I know I was a closed beta tester for it. FA 3 is more competitive. People seem to just want to win dogfights in it. I guess it dates all the way back to the 1.0 release and the bsk'ers who showed up from other games. Everyone wants to be the greatest and most feared dog fighter.

Smoo makes a good argument. You should be happy he is willing to take the time to debate his points intelligently here. Makes a nice change of pace from the flame wars that you usually see in these forums.

(edit to fix spelling and grammer.)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2002, 09:30:38 AM by Habu »

Offline SmooMonster

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #141 on: January 25, 2002, 11:41:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by K West


 I was pretty much prepared to get more pictures, draw a few lines and offer a few more analogies and examples but I realised that even if you brought Smoo personally to a WWII fighter, had him sit in and to actually SEE the layout he'd still maintain that guages should be blurry and you need a seperate view.  That's the way of a dyed in the wool sycophant.

   Westy


Westy, please don't let this degenerate into name-calling - it's been a fairly mature discussion up to now.

As you obviously don't believe me (and why should you, after all?), please look at page four of this site.


http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/includes/ga/13aleafl.pdf

This is from the Civil Aviation Authority, the UK equivalent of the FAA.

It clearly states the area of human FOV focus is just 10-15 degrees, it takes two seconds to refocus from outside to inside and head movement is required to scan instruments etc etc...It also states on page nine that military pilots spent three seconds scanning instruments for every 18-20 seconds scanning outside to maintain level flight.

But I guess CAA are just FA sycophants too...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2002, 01:01:14 PM by SmooMonster »

Offline StSanta

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2002, 01:25:37 PM »
Hey Smoo, nice document there. What I lacked was references to studies regarding the human eye - i.e how they've gotten the info in that document.

My father is an eye doctor, I'll check with him. He also has a specialty in psychiatry, so he should be qualified on the matter.

We had a discussion similar to this some time ago - basically it was about how quickly the eye and brain could coordinate when one is driving a car. My example was looking at the instruments (speed) and then going back to scanning the road. IIRC, the time this would take was substantially less than two seconds.

The article suggests that we 'tend not to believe what we see out of the corner of our eyes'. I'm not sure what the author is trying to say here. There are various filters in our brain we use, but I haven't seen or heard about us not believing what we see at the corner of an eye. Zeroing in on movement and placing the object that moves into the very small focus area is done very much in an automatic fashion.

At any rate, the human animal can shift focus area very quickly - in fact, that's how we build up an accurate picture of the world around us. We continuously scan and then compose the separate bits into a big picture.

If you have to press a key to get to head down instruments view, you're really making it harder than it is in reality. First, you'd have to press the key. Then you'd have to scan for the correct instrument. Then you'd have to press another key. Then you'd scan out of the cockpit.

Compared to: focus outside cockpit, scan instruments, focus outside cockpit. The close proximity of a monitor to our eyes means we cannot have all instruments in the focus area - most is on our peripheral view. Requiring a key shift to see them clearly is akin to removing them from the periphery - i.e you'll have to turn your head completey around, then catch the instrument of interest from your periphery and move it into the area where you can see focused. Just ain't right.

AH got it right - with the limitations of monitors, it does a remarkable good job of mimmicking real life - have it in periphery, scan, go back to scanning outside.



Artifical unnecessary difficulty does not add realism.

Offline K West

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2002, 01:45:16 PM »
psycophant is not a "name" but my apology of it offended you.


""Artifical unnecessary difficulty does not add realism."

 Is what it boils down to. It matters not the circumstances, in combat  or not,  that a "glance" is being done when the fact is that taking your eyes off the sky (or road) in front of you to glance down at the dash (be it in a car or airplane) does not take any significant amount of time to refocus and it does not blind one to the outside world ahead of them.  A seperate view to do so is pure "artifical unnecessary difficulty" and it indeed does not add to any realism.
 Cockpit guages were not on the floor nor were they laid out by the pilots knees.  They were out in front of the pilot and in almost all cases, as demonstrated in the pictures I showed links to, they were within the pilots line of sight.
 If a few players want to stand by VR1's decision, right or wrong, on that then fine.  That's thier perogative. That's why the term psycophant was used.  But they'll never convince me (or others) who feel it is nothing but a bullxxx phony feature. Especially after being able to prove otherwise (imo) imply using the example of driving an automobile, or truck. Let alone having been in some of these actual planes.

  Same with padlock.  And also regarding the 109 and 190  roll rates ;)   (re: IL2 discussion of the past here)   Some folks will simply believe what they want and defend it to the end because they have this odd emotional stake in ensuring thier fave developer remains infallable.  

 Westy

Offline SmooMonster

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #144 on: January 25, 2002, 09:42:57 PM »
Santa - Here's two links that explain a bit more about the mechanics of field of vision with reference to each other...

http://www.waltersforensic.com/human/vol4-no3.htm

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/retina.html

Here's one further similarity with everyday life...your keyboard. It's in about the same position to your monitor as an instrument panel is to a cockpit view. Look at your keyboard (you probably dropped your chin slightly to do so BTW, but whatever...). Now while looking at your keyboard, type out my post. Oh, you can't, can you? Because you can't see the monitor clearly enough anymore now can you?

Westy, as the CAA identified, it takes three seconds to scan an instrument panel and one to two seconds to refocus. That's five seconds away from frontal view. Five seconds is considerably longer than the fraction of a second it takes in AH.

"Sycophant" isn't a name but neither is "idiot" or "fool" but I think you would feel I was calling you names if I used those terms.

Sycophants blindly follow without regard to the truth. If I suspect something is not right, I try to find out about it and make my own mind up. You should try it some time...

So - here is my cockpit-only view in the George. I can see most of the top row of gauges, but in the second post, if I want to see the rest of the dials I have to look down and take *most* of my vision away from whats going on in front of me.

All the research I can find suggests this is entirely accurate. My own flying experiences suggest this is entirely accurate. My own driving experiences (in works rally cars and Formula Ford) suggest this is accurate. Oh and I've also sat in a WWII warbird cockpit or two as well...

Meanwhile, you've seen pics taken with a wide angle lens and made your mind up. "A 28mm-35mm lens can fit it all in one pic, therefore that must be what it's like to fly..." Try taking a pics of a cockpit from the pilot's seat with a 55mm lens (the closest lens to human FOV and perspective) and see how many instruments you can fit in while looking forward then...

Offline SmooMonster

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« Reply #145 on: January 25, 2002, 09:47:52 PM »
And here's the lookdown angle...

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #146 on: January 26, 2002, 08:32:09 AM »
Smoo

Thanks for the links, but those two links were more mechanism descriptions of the eye itself. Was hoping for links where the entire sensory system was examined - i.e the brain and the eye working ín conjunction. Specifically, I wondered about the assertion made about us not 'believing' what we see in our periphery.

My keyboard is at angle of around 75 to 80 degrees from my eye. The pics Westy have posted illustrates that the same isn't true for most of the instruments in a fighter - they aren't placed on your lap, and there's a reason for it.

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #147 on: January 26, 2002, 09:45:34 AM »
IMHO i think Smoo got an point here...
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Offline K West

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #148 on: January 26, 2002, 10:52:39 AM »
He does. Those screen shots are fine by me. The first is much clearer than what I'd had but if I could see it as well as he can then it would more than be fine.  Moot point now imo.


 But about taking 5 seconds to read the dash? Hogwash. Maybe for a full blown, complete system status check but...  Well, just imagine being in a bomber formation, or finger four of fighters and taking your eyes of the planes near you for at least those five seconds he claims the study says. It would be one sure way to get a buddy and yourself killed. And if you accept that logic and report at face value when you have to consider that your eyes will need 2-3 more seconds to refocus back to the outside world when taking
them off the dash.  Doesn't wash with me.

 In my car I have to glance down at a greater angle to check my speed, revs, eng temp and make sure no warning lights are on than most WWII fighter pilots had to for doing the same with thier cockpit dashes. My head nevers moves, my only eyes glance down for one second AT MOST and I have no problems with focusing what so ever.  Even a motorcycle driver has to glance down further than all of us and it would be suicide for them to take thier eyes off the road for 5 seconds plus. And finally, my eyes are at best 20/70 and also in my late 30's. I'm not 21 with 20/20 vision and lightening fast reflexes as a real WWII pilot would be. So with my real life tests and experience it shows that report you refering to to be bull or completely irrelevant to the discussion.

 Westy

Offline Toad

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Sorry to hear an AH pilot can't read
« Reply #149 on: January 26, 2002, 11:15:39 AM »
When you are actually engaged and fighting for your life how many of those instruments on the dash board will actually help you survive?  

Think the vacuum is vital? Clock?

A quick glance at a very few of the important ones is all you need. A moment.

I have and do fly WW2 trainers in fingertip formation and various maneuvers. I glance at a few instruments when I need too. It doesn't take me 5 seconds to figure out my airspeed coming over the top, either.

I look forward to checking it out.. when it's done and during the free trial. ;)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2002, 05:51:56 AM by Toad »
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