Tactical maneuver or Dweeb trick?

[2Late4U]

OK, with the talking about stick stiring of late, many of the conversations have turned to accusations of players doing it to cause an overshoot.  My big concern is the idea that what many seem to be calling a dweeb move seems to bear a striking resemblance to a legitimate combat maneuver.

If Im flying along at 10k 300knots and I see an enemy gaining on me from behind, and possibly above.  Just when did it become a dweeb maneuver to cut the throttle, nose up slightly and preform several barrel rolls?  This is exactly the type of move many seem to be whinning about, and it is a legitimate tactical move.  When there is someone behind me at a higher speed, he has the E advantage, so Im sure as heck not going to let them use that advantage, Im going to use his energy state against him.  If they are good, they'll go around and and conserve their E while I waste all mine doing the barrel rolls.  

The term stick stirring refers to moving the stick in sevearl different directions rappidly.  It does NOT refer to doing barrel rolls which is just what it looks like people are saying.

flop around in an attempt to get me to overshoot

Ummm...yea....thats the idea, make the guy with the advantage overshoot.

[Rude]

What you just described is called a displacement roll...it is a valid tactic. As a matter of fact, I wish I was better at than I am:)

[pimpjoe]

what rude said:)

i havent even looked at that thread. people whining about how somebody defends them self has some serious issues with their ACM's that they need to work out. i say if it works an over shoot...use it:)

[Tac]

cc 2late4u. However if YOUR plane rolls to the left and dispaces to the right and then your nose yaws up and down at the same time, then your plane all the sudden instantly dives or climbs without any visible way of it being able to do that (aka, plane's nose is pointing up but the plane dives), THAT is stick stirring.

[Shane]

i'm fairly good about forcing overshoots with barrel rolls, and i've yet to be labeld "fish-floppy" when performing them.

probably because i've taken the time to futz with my scaling and dampers and don't jerk the stick all over when performing this manuver.  i ahte seeing it, so i'd be hypocritical if i did the same.

it can be done WITHOUT having to appear fish-floppy.

[Apache]

Agreed Tac.

I'm well aware of what a displacement roll or a barrel roll is.
My ACM is just fine. I'm not getting killed by this "manuver".

I'm not some newbie who just wandered into to this thing with mouse in hand.

[-pjk--]

Just  curious,  is  AH using  knots or mph?, i know  AH do not use km/h.

Potkaiskaa niitä perseeseen!!

pjk

[CRASH]

Hmm, I'd have to disagree with ya on that one, as a matter of fact this very manuever has been mentioned in several books written by wwii aces as to their response to suddenly seeing tracers fly by their cockpits...stick left, mash right rudder....totally uncoordinated.  Japanese seemed to think we couldnt fly because we would get the plane lookin like it was gonna swap ends when they suprised the americans  
     As for stick stirring, it was my understanding that if you stick stirred you would lose flight control for several seconds and get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message.  Happens to me on the runway every so often when I start to roll and realize I haven't moved  my usb controls yet leaving them uncalibrated and generally sending me off the runway, so ofcourse I move'em real fast to get'em calibrated and consequently lose all control and generally slam into an ammo dump or some such obstruction, so seems to me that the anti-stick stirring code works fine.

CRASH

[Hamish]

Crash: I Think you are talking about what i learned to be called a "Snap roll" which, while i could do one in WB, i've never been able to get it to work in AH.  

[CavemanJ]

Originally posted by Rude
What you just described is called a displacement roll...it is a valid tactic. As a matter of fact, I wish I was better at than I am:)

heheh one of these days when yer divin on my pony I'll be happy to demonstrate a displacement roll, followed by my .50s shredding yer pony.

[Beegerite]

About a week ago I watched a show on History Chanel about the P51.  I was thrilled when one of the Aces (Don Blakeslee I think) described this exact maneuver and called it a "snap roll".   I immediately went into AH and in offline mode I filmed myself flying straight and level and at a predetermined point I jammed the stick full forward to the left while at the same time jamming in full right rudder.  The result was extremely interesting specially when looked at from trailing view with tracks.  Anyone up close and personal on your six would surely be disoriented by the sudden move.  Try it.
Beeg

Originally posted by CRASH
Hmm, I'd have to disagree with ya on that one, as a matter of fact this very manuever has been mentioned in several books written by wwii aces as to their response to suddenly seeing tracers fly by their cockpits...stick left, mash right rudder....totally uncoordinated.  Japanese seemed to think we couldnt fly because we would get the plane lookin like it was gonna swap ends when they suprised the americans  
     As for stick stirring, it was my understanding that if you stick stirred you would lose flight control for several seconds and get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message.  Happens to me on the runway every so often when I start to roll and realize I haven't moved  my usb controls yet leaving them uncalibrated and generally sending me off the runway, so ofcourse I move'em real fast to get'em calibrated and consequently lose all control and generally slam into an ammo dump or some such obstruction, so seems to me that the anti-stick stirring code works fine.

CRASH



 

[FLS]

Hamish a snap roll, also called a flick roll, is usually initiated by pitching up sharply. One wing stalls first and the lift from the other wing rolls the aircraft. Rudder input can alter the direction or speed of the snap roll. Aileron input is not required but opposite aileron can be used to stop the roll at a specific point.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[Tumor]

Unfortunately, we must ad the LAG factor into this manuever which means it really goes both ways.  Performing the manuever is completely valid.  Performing the manuever while playing to the net lag makes it dweebish as hell.

[Dinger]

Okay:
Snap roll is basically inducing a spin in level flight.  It works better in WB than AH (I mean, in DOA I could snap roll with precision to fake a split-ess), but some planes do it better than others.  The "stop moving your stick so rapidly" doesn't really work against stick stirring.  It usually catches me when I'm in a buff and switching positions.  But here's how stick-stirring works:

Contrary to popular opinion, it's all about small control movements.  Your position and velocity is updated every half second, so if you do an ailer roll and rudder kick (yes, Andy, a kick) in one direction, then reverse within a half second, the FE will send a roll and yaw speed in one direction, and the pursuer will see you move in that first direction.  Then you'll have reversed, and the opponent's FE will have to update a movement 2-4 times what you actually did.  That's stick stirring.
Often it occurs by pilots who haven't studied much BFM, but who find tha this works.  They have little idea what it looks like on the other side.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Dinger

Contrary to popular opinion, it's all about small control movements.  Your position and velocity is updated every half second, so if you do an ailer roll and rudder kick (yes, Andy, a kick) in one direction, then reverse within a half second, the FE will send a roll and yaw speed in one direction, and the pursuer will see you move in that first direction.  Then you'll have reversed, and the opponent's FE will have to update a movement 2-4 times what you actually did.  That's stick stirring.
Often it occurs by pilots who haven't studied much BFM, but who find tha this works.  They have little idea what it looks like on the other side.

Every 500ms? Is the lag that bad?