A 'Primer' for new LW pilots.

[Urchin]

Fw190-D9 -  

General Strengths-  Very good level speed on the deck (at 375 or so on WEP).  Very good roll rate at all speeds.  Dives extremely well.  Sustained climb is good, if not fantastic.  Zoom climb is also good.  

General Weaknesses-  Very poor sustained turning.  Some people have trouble with the guns.  I personally set my convergence in the Dora to 375 and I fire all guns at the same time.  

Against the Spit IX-  The Spitfire has a definate advantage in the flat turning department.   Sustained climb rates are similar.  The Dora has a definate advantage in diving, zoom climbing, and roll rate.  

Attacking the Spitfire-  Use your advantages.  Do NOT try to turn with the Spitfire.  Do NOT let your speed drop below 300mph (true, not indicated).  Be patient when you are attacking the Spitfire.  If you are co-alt or higher than the Spitfire, you are almost certainly at an E-advantage, so you want to keep that.  Avoid hard manuevers, make a pass and then extend in a nice, low-G climb to minimize E-loss.  Basically, you will be BnZ'ing the hapless Spitfire.  Avoid the HO, if he turns into you just climb above him, if you are lucky he will stall out going for the shot, in which case you have just gotten an easy kill.  

Defending against the Spitfire-  If you got caught low and slow, you are going to have a tough time.   If you see the Spit coming in time, punch WEP and do a shallow dive to get your speed up to at least 300 mph (true).  If he dives on you, turn into his attack and try to make him angle his nose down even more by flying under him.  If he is coming from your level 6, you will probably have a tough time getting away (assuming he is faster).  There is a more detailed explanation in the thread "what to do in this situation" (or something like that), with several good evasives to use if someone is coming up your tail.  If the Spit is co-alt with you or lower, he can't attack you even if he wanted to.  You decide when and if you are going to fight the Spitfire.  

The N1K2-  Again, the N1K2 has the advantage in flat turning.  The Dora holds the advantages in climb rate, diving speed (although the N1K is faster in a dive than the Spit, so beware),  and roll rate.  

Attacking the N1K2-  In general, you will be using the same tactics against the N1K2 that you will use on the Spitfire.  Stay fast, avoid turning.  You will not be able to 'saddle up' on a N1K2 or a Spitfire in the Dora, so make the most of your shot opportunities.  If anything, the Dora has an even greater advantage in the vertical sphere against the N1K than the Spit, because the N1K will stall out sooner.  

Defending against the N1K2-  As with the Spitfire, if you got caught low and slow you will have a very tough time of it.  See the thread mentioned above for help in that situation, and once you get him to overshoot you should probably take advantage of the Doras good acceleration and top speed and leave quickly .

The La-7-  This plane holds almost every advantage in a fight with a Dora.  The La-7 is faster, accelerates and climbs better, dives faster, and turns better.  The Dora has a marginal edge in roll rate.  

Attacking the LA-7-  Start with an altitude advantage if it is at all possible.  I would advise against turning with the La-7, although the turning advantage the La-7 has is nowhere  near as pronounced as the turning advantage the N1K and Spit enjoy.  I generally try to keep my speed up and hope for the best.  Most new pilots will have a very tough time against the La-7.  

Defending against the LA-7-  Again, the La-7 holds all the cards.  If he has initiated the combat, you have very little hope but to try to run as far as you can while screaming for help.  

*NOTE- the above holds true below 10k.  If you are above 10k, much of the La-7s advantages in climb rate, acceleration, and top speed over the Dora evaporates.  However, all the LA-7 has to do to get away is dive back under 10k, where it is at an advantage.  

The P-51-  The Dora most of the cards in this fight.  The P-51 turns a little better, but the Dora accelerates and climbs better.  Diving speed is just about equal, the P51 can hold onto the extra speed longer.  

Attacking the P51-  You can be just about as aggresive as you want here.  You CAN in fact 'saddle up' on a P51 in a Dora.  The P51s turning advantage is not all that great at speeds above 250 mph, if the turning fight looks like it will slow down below 250, merely break off, climb up, and initiate the fight again at will.  

Defending against the P-51-  Again, I am more aggresive defensively against the P-51 than against the other 3 popular planes.  Try to force an overshoot, and once you do just hang onto his tail.  Go for any snapshots you can get, as the P-51 has a radiator that is fairly vulnerable to battle damage (although not quite as frail as the Doras, in my opinon).  


Flying the 109G-10-  The G10 is a little bit tougher to get kills in than the Dora.  You aren't putting out as much lead, so it is tougher to get snapshot kills on the N1K2's and Spits.  I don't really have an opinion on the gondolas.  Sometimes I use them and sometimes I don't.  I will say that the only plane that the G-10 loses its advantages against when it mounts gondolas is the P-51.  The La-7 is still vastly superior (even moreso if the G-10 has gondolas), the Spit and N1K are still merely targets.  

Against the Spitfire-  Offensively and Defensivly, you want to use the same tactics you used in the Dora.  You will have a tougher time killing the Spit with the G-10.  

Against the N1K2-  Again, use the same tactics you used against the N1K2 in the Dora.  Again, you will have a tougher time getting kills.  

Against the La-7-  The La-7 still holds the cards in this fight.  The La-7 out-everythings the G-10.  Be very careful when flying near La-7s.  

Against the P-51-  In my opinion, the G-10 holds the cards in this one.  The G-10 isnt quite as fast on the deck as the P-51, but it accelerates, climbs, and turns better.  The P-51 can dive away from a G-10, which will compress (so you better have elevator trim mapped to your stick ).  

Attacking the P-51-  It is best to be very aggresive against the P-51.  Saddle up, and if he turns you turn right with him.  You may have a tough time staying with him if he dives to above 400 mph, in that case use a "lag" pursuit to stay in the same general orientation, then drop back onto his 6 once he pulls out of the dive.  

Defending against the P-51-  In most cases, I am very aggresive on defense as well.  Try to create an overshoot, then stick onto his tail like glue.  If you really must get out of a bad situation, dive to about 400 mph, then start a shallow climb away from the Mustang.  You should begin to pull away as the excess speed wears off and the contest comes down to sustained climb rates.
 

Flying the 190A5-  The A5 is quite a bit slower than the Dora and the G-10.  It still accelerates quite well, and it turns quite a bit better than the Dora does, but not quite as well as the G-10 does.  Sustained climb rates are good, if not phenomenal.  Roll rate is excellent at all speeds.  The A5 can also dive quite well, but it doesnt hold that extra speed as long as the LW thoroughbreds.  

Against the Spitfire-  The Spitfire still holds a flat turning advantage (duh ).  Also, the A5 doesnt have as large a margin of safety speedwise as the G-10 and Dora have.  For that reason, you want to be higher than the Spitfire you attack, so you can zoom back up to safety after you make your firing pass.  The Spitfire has an edge in sustained climbing, but the A5 can dive and zoom better.  

Attacking the Spitfire-  Start with an altitude advantage.  Stay fast.  In general, you are going to be using the same tactics you used before, but the A5s extra firepower means you can get more kills with your snapshots.  

Defending against the Spitfire-  If you get caught low and slow, you are in serious trouble.  If you see him coming in time, just punch WEP and dive, and you can outdistance him.  

Against the N1K2-  In general, the N1K holds the advantage in a fight.  It is only a couple miles per hour slower, it turns and climbs better, and accelerates faster.  

Attacking the N1K2-  Use the same tactics you used against the Spitfire, but be even more careful not to get sucked into a turning fight.  

Defending against the N1K2-  In general, don't.  If you are put on the defensive and you can get away, just run.  You will eventually outdistance the N1K2.  If a N1K2 dives on you, you have pretty much had it.  

Against the La-7-  The La-7 still holds all the cards.  Use BnZ to attack, but don't make to many passes or you will eventually reach the stage where your target has more E than you do.  On defense you are pretty much dead against the La-7.  

Against the P-51-  The P-51 is quite a bit faster on the deck.  The A5 turns better (at least I think it does, there are others that disagree with me), accelerates better (at least to its top speed),  and has much more firepower.  Climb rates are roughly equal, with the A5 perhaps having a slight edge.  Diving acceleration and speed are roughly equal, with the P-51 holding onto the extra speed much longer.  

Attacking the P-51-  Be aggresive!  Saddle up and take every shot you can, the P-51 can't take much punishment from 20mm cannon.  

Defending against the P-51-  If the P51 tries to BnZ you, you will have a difficult time.  Turn into his attacks and try to force a HO, otherwise you will be killed eventually.  If he tries to saddle up, create an overshoot and kick his bellybutton .


OK, well, I am tired of typing.  I'll cover the A8 and the rest of the 109s a little later, after my fingers have rested.

[Tac]

...and bail out the moment a red p-38 shows up. You're doomed

[Oldman731]

Nice tips there.  Thanks very much.

- oldman

[Urchin]

Ok, here goes a few more-  

109G2-  The G2 is the 2nd best 109 in my opinion.  It is faster than the G6 (and F4) and turns better than the G6 and G10.  It also has good a sustained climb rate and good acceleration.

Against the Spitfire-   The Spitfire still holds the edge in flat turning.  The G2 has an edge in suatained climbing and speed.  Diving acceleration is close, but the G2 can outrun a Spitfire after a sustained dive.  

 Attacking the Spitfire-  Again, you will be using BnZ tactics.  You can safely turn with a Spitfire for about 90 degrees, if you haven't gotten the kill by then you need to dive out to get your speed back up.  If you are a new pilot, I'd recommend gondolas, this will make killing Spitfires much easier.  

 Defending against the Spitfire-  You will have a much tougher time getting away from a Spitfire in a G2 than you would in a G10.  You can still outrun them, but the margin isn't as wide.  I'd recommend a shallow dive or shallow climb to get away from a particularly persistant Spitfire.  Be aware that those cannons can put a hurting on your plane, so don't get lazy and go completely straight until you are about 1000 yards away.  

Against the N1K2-  Again, you will use the same sort of tactics against the N1K2 that you used against the Spitfire.  The G2 really only holds an edge in sustained climb and level speed, and those are not wide margins.    

Attacking the N1K2-  Use BnZ tactics.  You can turn with a N1K2 for perhaps 120 to 150 degrees, but I would not recommend it unless you are absolutely sure you will get the kill as a result.  Conserve your speed and be patient, you will wear him down eventually.

Against the LA7-  The La7 holds a large advantage in sustained and zoom climbing, level speed, and acceleration.  The G2 has a better sustained turn rate.  

Attacking the LA7-  It is tough to attack an La7 in a G2, because the La7 can break off the combat at will.  I'd recommend saddling up and staying with the La7 as long as he will let you.  If he tries to turnfight you, he will lose.  

Defending against the La7-  Here the G2 has an advantage over the G10.  While the La7 still has major advantages over the 109, the G2 can at least outturn the La7.  I'd recommend using flat turns to avoid his attacks, if you can create an overshoot with a flat turn, you can win the fight.

Against the P-51D-  The P-51 has an advantage in level speed.  The G-2 takes acceleration, climb rate, and turn rate.  

Attacking the P-51D-  If you attack a P-51 while he is at high speed, he will likely be a challenge.  Most P-51 pilots will elect to erm... 'extend' if faced with fighting a plane that has an advantage.  If this is the case, you don't have very long to kill him.  Stay fast, don't try to follow him through any 'wiggly' moves.  If he starts to slow down rapidly, chop throttle and do a barrel roll to slow down, you will accelerate faster than he will if he tries to run away after failing to create an overshoot.  If you manage to get the P-51 slow, he is an easy kill.

Defending against the P-51-  Most P-51 pilots will try to BnZ you.  You have to evade his attacks, yet conserve enough energy so that if he makes a mistake you can jump all over him.  (most 109s are excellent at this, by the way).   If you are both slow, just use flat turns to get him off your tail, if he elects to follow you you have won the fight.

Flying the 190A8-  The A8 is really a bomber buster, not a fighter.  It has incredible firepower, but not a whole lot of agility.  You generally want to fly it conservatively, keep your speed up and BnZ.  The A8 turns fairly well at high speeds (300 mph+), but it bleeds off speed fast in a turn and does not accelerate well at all.

Against the Spitfire-  The Spitfire has the advantage in sustained climb rate, zoom climbing, turn rate, and acceleration.  The 190A8 is slightly faster on the deck, although the advantage becomes less pronounced at higher altitudes (and the Spitfire is actually faster above 20k or so).  

Attacking the Spitfire-   The 190A8 is actually a great plane for BnZ, especially against Spitfires.  You can use the A8s great rate of roll and decent high speed turning to line up your shot with much more accuracy than is possible than in a 109, and with much greater results than in a Dora.   However, if you get suckered into dropping below 300 mph, you are dogmeat.  If you get sucked into a turn fight with a Spitfire, dive as steeply as you can, get above 400 mph and then think about levelling out and running.

Defending against the Spitfire-  Low and slow, you are dead meat.  The only possible hope you have is to create an overshoot and get lucky with your snapshot.  If you are over 300 mph, you have a good chance at being able to run away and fight another day.  

Fighting the N1K2-  The N1K2 holds all the advantages over the A8 that the Spitfire has, the A8 is marginally faster (but not enough to make a difference if you let that N1K2 get within 600 yards.

Attacking the N1K2-  Use the same tactics you used against the Spitfire.

Defending against the N1K2-  Use the same tactics you did against the Spitfire, saying a prayer might help to if you are low and slow.  

Against the La-7- The La7 holds every advantage.  

Attacking the La-7-  I wouldn't recommend flying close to an La-7 in a 190A8, but if you simply must attack them, use BnZ and don't make to many passes.  

Defending against the La-7-  Again, if you are engaged by an La-7, you are almost automatically on the defensive.  If he gives you a snapshot, take it.  If not, I'd put your Wurger in a dive and run screaming to the nearest friendlies.  

Against the P-51D-  The P-51 holds the advantage in level speed, turning, and zooming.  The 190A8 can dive with a P51, but it can't hold the extra speed as long.  At speeds below 300 mph, the A8 outaccelerates the P51.  

Attacking the P-51-  You can be a bit more aggresive here than you would be against a N1K2 or Spit.  Most P-51 drivers will elect to run if they are bounced, rather than turn into it.  Fortunately for you, your A8 is a pretty fast plane in a dive, so you can generally bring those big guns to bear if they try to run in a straight line.  If they try to turn into you, I'd recommend zooming to set up either BnZ or to just drop back onto their tail after they are done turning.  

Defending against the P-51-  In case you haven't gotten this by now, the cockpit of a 190A8 is a bad place to be if you are on defense.  In general, attempt to create an overshoot and hammer him with a snapshot as he goes by.  There are several good threads on how to create an overshoot, so I won't go into details here.

[Nifty]

you don't mention the leather underwear at all.  That's an integral part of Luftwaffe flying.  

j.k.  good info Urchin!  

[Nath[BDP]]

I would tell a new LW-only pilot to firstly learn how to shoot and master the snapshot. As well as learning firstly the limits and potential of the G10 and 190A8 by ACM/BFM repetition, which will make it easier to move to less challenging LW/other aircraft that have similar tendencies but obviously much better performance for an arena or pvp setting.

The 109 series is not meant to be flown conservatively, this is prevelant in its lack of rudder authority above 400mph TAS, this is especially true with the G10--since it can pretty much fly aggressive but then get out of a situation that it doesnt want to be in--or use its advantages to reset its position for further attacks on hostiles. Constant BnZ tactics being used in a 109 is quite detrimental and unproductive.

Similarly, the A8, as Urchin stated; does not hold E well.  As the the A8 is predisposed to be petulant in its E conservation it should not be used in constant BnZ attacks--yet in more aggressive styles. The fact that one must train and master the snapshot and be studious of the velocity of the 20mm/30mm is even more paramount for success in the 190A series than the 109, since one must be dutiful in that the passes are correct and result in hits on the hostile.

[Urchin]

Ah, but this is only referring to combat against Spits, N1Ks, La7s, and P51s.  If I am in a G-10 I'll 'mix it' with a lot of planes.  P47s, F4U's, P38s, F6F's, other 109s, 190s.  I recommend mixing it with the P51, even if the LW pilot is a "newbie", as the 109 and 190 can dogfight a P51 fairly successfully.  However, a new pilot would stand almost no chance if he attempted to turnfight a Spit, N1K, or La7.

[Nath[BDP]]

Somewhat true, however, I was not really suggesting to 'turn fight' with Spits, Niks, La7s. More so on being 'unpredictably aggressive' as I like to call it. Simplistically, the latter is basically a set of techniques to get the utmost suprise/panic out of a hostile aircraft by flying in a way he does not expect you to or what would be the norm in a LW type aircraft. The 'techniques' would basically result in causing the hostile to 'fumble' as I like to call it, he will not be prepared for an aggressive pass by a 190/109 most likely and thus he won't take the precautionary steps to prevent me to get a shot on him. Constant BnZ on the other hand is always sure to be easily defended by a hostile, especially ones like a Spit, Nik or La7--in any of those aircraft I can basically deny any 109/190 all BnZ shots every time he attempts it. And also bleed his E in the process which I will use later on to finesse him into my sights for a shot.

Expanding on the 'techniques', even a new Lw pilot can learn how to 'saddle up' on a better turning, better climbing, better diving, better accelerating aircraft for one or two shots--which he needs to make count by practicing his aim. From my experience, BnZ never results in anything productive except maybe making the opponent fall asleep, which DMF and I have been tortuously exposed to time and again.

[Dead Man Flying]

Nath's definitely right about cranking up the aggression level.  I think that's the key in any plane, especially ones that can control a fight and enter or exit at will.  I can only fly as aggressively in the Spit V as my opponents allow me.  But in a 109G10, one can fly just about as aggressively as he'd like against most other planes.  The true strength of fast, great-accelerating, great-climbing planes is the luxury of aggressiveness.  

BnZ to me is anti-aggressive.  It's often boring and complacent.  I've literally fallen asleep at the computer before when having to deal with multiple BnZers who would make a pass, extend a sector while grabbing, then return.  If that's how they want to fly, great, but they're not going to become better overall pilots by studiously avoiding the things that make you a better player.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
BnZ to me is anti-aggressive.  It's often boring and complacent.  I've literally fallen asleep at the computer before when having to deal with multiple BnZers who would make a pass, extend a sector while grabbing, then return.  If that's how they want to fly, great, but they're not going to become better overall pilots by studiously avoiding the things that make you a better player.

Heh heh.  But they WILL get more points.  Let's keep our priorities straight here, shall we?

- oldman

[Urchin]

I understand what you mean.  Lev, you have faced me a few times in the MA.  How would you characterize my flying style?  One that I remember particularly well was me and Wotan against you and someone else- we got the someone else but we never did get you, in spite of the fact you were in a Spit V and we were in Doras.  

I've only faced Nath once I believe.  He is a much more aggressive pilot than I am, at least I think so.  I'll only press the attack if I think I have the advantage, I very rarely go for broke if I don't think I'll get the kill as a result.  However, since he is also probably a better pilot than me, he can get away with it .  I generally can't.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Urchin
I understand what you mean.  Lev, you have faced me a few times in the MA.  How would you characterize my flying style?  One that I remember particularly well was me and Wotan against you and someone else- we got the someone else but we never did get you, in spite of the fact you were in a Spit V and we were in Doras.

[/B]

I do remember the fight you're talking about.  I didn't know who I was fighting at the time, but I was very impressed at the aggressiveness I saw given the planes you guys were flying.  There wasn't a moment where one or the other of you wasn't pulling for a firing solution on my six.  Good stuff.  I don't recall exactly, but I think the fight degenerated when I smoked one of you, after which the aggression level let up a bit.

I've only faced Nath once I believe.  He is a much more aggressive pilot than I am, at least I think so.  I'll only press the attack if I think I have the advantage, I very rarely go for broke if I don't think I'll get the kill as a result.  However, since he is also probably a better pilot than me, he can get away with it .  I generally can't.

I'll intentionally put myself at a disadvantage to encourage an enemy to engage me.  I'll often let enemies get as close as 500 to 800 yards off my dead six before "starting" the fight.  The reason for doing that is to force them to commit.  They might make a few half-hearted BnZ passes, but enough looks at my six and most people will eventually commit to pulling hard for a firing solution.  At that point, they've screwed up and started playing my game.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Naudet]

One thing i still dont get ist the aggressiveness point.

I fly the Dora very very often, but if i fly it what i call aggressive, i will die 10 outta 10 times.

So what from of aggressiveness do you mean?

When the dora 1st came out, i ran into Nath, and after getting frustrated by multiple deaths, i startet to talk to him, and we then did, what i would call, a 1v1 lesson in the MA. I was only one time able to kill Nath, and that was at a point were he did a mistake, so actually he got himself.

But what i found out during this fights were, that when i press hard for the kill, giving my target no time to relax, it will get the upperhand sooner or later cause the D9 will lose its advantage. And in the end i die.

On the other hand i can rack up kills with patience and got SA, working with my advantage and find the right time to drop out when it is not running in my favour.

Especially for the D9 i find aggressivness kills me, i tried the A8 a few day at low level, and found it to be a better plane for the low alt mixup. Also i could fly it more aggressive that the D9.

So what form of aggressiveness you mean?

Take into account, that i think of myself as pilot like this:

ACM skill & knowledge: average or less than average
shooting: usually good, interupted by days of pure airhole shooting
SA: usually good-exellent, also interupted from time to time by days of horror

[Drex]

I'll intentionally put myself at a disadvantage to encourage an enemy to engage me. I'll often let enemies get as close as 500 to 800 yards off my dead six before "starting" the fight

Thats my setup for a fight.  That means you partly suck btw.

Drex

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Naudet
So what form of aggressiveness you mean?

By aggressiveness I mean pressing one's advantages without letting up.  That doesn't mean being so aggressive as to screw up.  Think of it this way...

Imagine you're in a Dora above an enemy Spitfire.  You can dive on the Spitfire, pull briefly for a firing solution, then zoom again.  You can zoom to 900 yards above the Spit and begin the attack again, or you can zoom to 3k above the Spit to begin your attack again.

Which is more aggressive?  Why would you zoom to 3k above the Spit when 900 yards work just as well?  In addition, by zooming less you throw off the Spit's timing, give him less of a chance to set up for future attacks, and you kill more quickly and efficiently.  You don't need to turn with the Spit to be aggressive, but there are ways to press your particular plane's advantages without fighting the other guy's fight.

-- Todd/Leviathn