Author Topic: Rush has finally gone too far  (Read 2401 times)

Offline streakeagle

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2002, 06:52:58 PM »
NATO and any country near it, plus most of Southeast Asia and South America :p I don't see anyone else fielding even one nuclear powered supercarrier (much less 10 to 14). We have enough land forces to have been simultaneously protecting NATO, Korea, and our own country all at one time plus pit stops in South America and the Middle East. Do the Germans have tanks and troops they can spare to help out all over the world? The Japanese are a special case because by their own laws they are not allowed to have a strong military, which we happen to agree with, so we help protect them to ensure they don't feel the need to "expand their assets" ;) I don't really want to pick on the British, because despite their small numbers, they are close allies and help us as much as they can, but the fact is, they were barely able to take the Falklands/Malvinas back from Argentina. No other country in the world can forward deploy the forces we can, not in size, quality, or speed. This capability has been expensive to maintain, but has ensured that almost every other country even remotely allied to us doesn't have to worry about wasting their money to do the same. Why was even one U.S. dollar or soldier needed to defend Kuwait? They are a very wealthy country. The "free" world counts on us to protect them and make their national budgets based on that assumption.

Against most current countries we have numbers and technology on our side. The West German Army and British Army have nice equipment and well trained people... but could France, Germany, and Britain combined defeat our all-round land/air/sea power combined? If we had to fight the combined might of Europe, their comparable technology would be a problem that we have yet to face, but in terms of numbers, we own the air and sea, and probably have them outnumbered on land as well. Only the former Soviet Union and current China are serious threats, primarily due to their numbers. German Tigers beat Shermans something like 4 to 1, too bad we were shipping them over at a 5 to 1 ratio. I fear that the Chinese manpower would require tactical nuclear options to be considered if we had to fight them on their land. Though, they couldn't invade us if they wanted to. Almost no Navy worth mentioning.

Maybe we should make a deal with the world: we continue doing everything we can to ensure "free trade" and the flow of oil and in return, they pay for us to have a national health care system comparable to their own?
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Offline mrsid2

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2002, 07:08:09 PM »
That only proves my point, your military budget is aimed for world domination and could shead a nice piece for healtcare.

None of the Nato members cut their defence budgets because of Nato that I'm aware of.. Quite the opposite from what I've heard.

Your country just happens to have a hugely oversized military and sticking your nose to everywhere. Other countries have normal militaries which are there only to protect the country from any immediate threats.

Kuwait had no chance to defend itself because it was facing an enemy who had been building its army extensively in the irak-iran war. That's why the alliance was actually needed.. Irak was so powerful that any single country would have had major problems with defeating it alone. Kuwaitis had a minimal army, despite its wealth its a relatively small country.

Offline ra

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2002, 08:02:03 PM »
Back to 'the rich deserve better health care'.
 
Only a brainwashed lemming can have a problem with this statement.  'Health Care' is just a namby-pamby way of saying 'medical goods and services'.  Your great-grand pappy and mine lived their entire lives with little to no 'health care' expenses.  They were delivered by a mid-wife, when they got sick their moms did the best they could to nurse them back to health, when they broke a bone they had it set by someone who had done it before.  Their medical bills were cheap because medical science was almost completely useless, so there were no medical services to buy.  Life expectancy was what, 55 years?  A century later, there have been major medical advances, life expentancies are up to 75+ years.  Those new medical services, be they drugs, surgery, whatever, cost money, as do all goods and services.

The rich have more money, that's what rich means.  People with more money can buy more, and better, goods and services.

If you think that Rush was saying 'the rich deserve better health care because they are more important than the poor' you may as well crawl up Hillary's skirt and die, you are already brain dead.  Rush was obviously going against the PC grain by pointing out that medical services are not some God-given right that our benevolent politicians distribute to us.  We pay for it, one way or the other.  

You pay for all the health care you can afford, anything more you receive above and beyond what you can afford is, in effect, charity.  In countries with socialised health care a healthy person pays more into the system than he receives, an unhealthy person receives more from the system than he pays in (charity). No socialized system would continue to function unless some people went to their graves having paid more into the system than they drew out.  

Here's an analogy for those of you too brainwashed to see health care as a product you must pay for:  The devolpment of the entire automobile industry was, is, and will continue to be motivated by the desires of the rich for better cars.  An average guy can afford a car with air conditioning, automatic transmission, radio/cd, power windows, and many other luxuries that were developed over the decades purely for the rich.  A 1930's socialist may have looked at a Hollywood movie star and said "20 workers could have bought Model T's for the money that rich fart spent on that one Dusenburg".  But socialists are idiots, and he would have missed the fact that the rich fart was priming a pump which would make better and better cars available to everyone later down the road.  In fact, automobiles themselves were originally impractical toys for the rich hobbyist.

Medical science requires the same kind of money pump, rich people like Michael Jackson throwing money at some quack to butcher his face yet again.  This money makes more kids want go to medical school, keeps pharmacuetical companies experimenting with new drugs, keeps food producers looking for a fat-free chili dog.  Almost all medical breakthroughs come from the rich countries, were the medical industry receives an injection of cash by the rich.  You don't see too many new drugs or procedures coming out of Ghana.  My dirt-poor neighbor had a heart attack and required a triple-bypass.  He got it, I doubt very much he paid for most of it.  In any socialist country he would have been put in a 2-meter hole.

Arguing of the 'equitable distribution' of any resource or product is just rusty old socialism. It only makes politicians more powerful, the common man gets shafted in the long run.

ra

Offline easymo

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2002, 08:04:49 PM »
"Other countries have normal militaries "

  Yes. We know. Thats why we are constantly hearing. "Save us. Save us!"

Offline mrsid2

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2002, 08:15:02 PM »
Umm.. there aren't too many countries crying that in the world. Even then your country goes to fix the regions which you have your own interest in. Oil for example..

You're doing it all for your own benefit so don't play the world saving card here.

ra: I think the major discussion here was if poor people deserve basic health care as opposed to rich people deserve better health care.

I think it sums up to the fact that both DESERVE equal level of healthcare since both are human. The rich folks go to their morning dump just like others. Only difference is that the rich can afford to buy services and quality the poor can never afford. This is crystal clear..

But if you think that a rich brat who inherited a few millions from his gold-digging daddy deserves a better care than his poor brother who was left out of his will.. well you can figure it out yourself. They both deserve the same.. The other just can't afford it.

Offline ra

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« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2002, 09:40:28 PM »
Mrsid,

I don't know what you mean by 'deserve', and I don't think you do either.  In a perfect universe there would be no illness.

ra

Offline Montezuma

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2002, 10:43:09 PM »
Do the social darwinists here want to get rid of medicare also?

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2002, 10:52:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
Back to 'the rich deserve better health care'.
 
Only a brainwashed lemming can have a problem with this statement.  'Health Care' is just a namby-pamby way of saying 'medical goods and services'.  Your great-grand pappy and mine lived their entire lives with little to no 'health care' expenses.  They were delivered by a mid-wife, when they got sick their moms did the best they could to nurse them back to health, when they broke a bone they had it set by someone who had done it before.  Their medical bills were cheap because medical science was almost completely useless, so there were no medical services to buy.  Life expectancy was what, 55 years?  A century later, there have been major medical advances, life expentancies are up to 75+ years.  Those new medical services, be they drugs, surgery, whatever, cost money, as do all goods and services.

The rich have more money, that's what rich means.  People with more money can buy more, and better, goods and services.

If you think that Rush was saying 'the rich deserve better health care because they are more important than the poor' you may as well crawl up Hillary's skirt and die, you are already brain dead.  Rush was obviously going against the PC grain by pointing out that medical services are not some God-given right that our benevolent politicians distribute to us.  We pay for it, one way or the other.  

You pay for all the health care you can afford, anything more you receive above and beyond what you can afford is, in effect, charity.  In countries with socialised health care a healthy person pays more into the system than he receives, an unhealthy person receives more from the system than he pays in (charity). No socialized system would continue to function unless some people went to their graves having paid more into the system than they drew out.  

Here's an analogy for those of you too brainwashed to see health care as a product you must pay for:  The devolpment of the entire automobile industry was, is, and will continue to be motivated by the desires of the rich for better cars.  An average guy can afford a car with air conditioning, automatic transmission, radio/cd, power windows, and many other luxuries that were developed over the decades purely for the rich.  A 1930's socialist may have looked at a Hollywood movie star and said "20 workers could have bought Model T's for the money that rich fart spent on that one Dusenburg".  But socialists are idiots, and he would have missed the fact that the rich fart was priming a pump which would make better and better cars available to everyone later down the road.  In fact, automobiles themselves were originally impractical toys for the rich hobbyist.

Medical science requires the same kind of money pump, rich people like Michael Jackson throwing money at some quack to butcher his face yet again.  This money makes more kids want go to medical school, keeps pharmacuetical companies experimenting with new drugs, keeps food producers looking for a fat-free chili dog.  Almost all medical breakthroughs come from the rich countries, were the medical industry receives an injection of cash by the rich.  You don't see too many new drugs or procedures coming out of Ghana.  My dirt-poor neighbor had a heart attack and required a triple-bypass.  He got it, I doubt very much he paid for most of it.  In any socialist country he would have been put in a 2-meter hole.

Arguing of the 'equitable distribution' of any resource or product is just rusty old socialism. It only makes politicians more powerful, the common man gets shafted in the long run.

ra


Ahh, well ok.  So, maybe someday for some reason when your broke and sick... You'll be ok with "sorry, you don't have insurance", now go away and die quietly like a good little peasant?
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Offline easymo

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2002, 12:15:59 AM »
"Strangely, I think our best hopes for healthcare lye in campaign reform.

 The poor already have national health care. Its called welfare. The rich don't need it.  It is the middle class that cant afford to go to the doctor. As long as insurance companys are allowed to give millions in campaign contributions we are screwed.  Any one who thinks that it is one man, one vote.  Should try giving a buck to a campaign. while the other guy gives a few thousand.  See who the politician listens to.

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2002, 03:13:45 AM »
ra: deserve means that the rich and the poor man have equal human rights. But I guess you wouldn't know anything about that either.

Seems like you're a social racist. Born with a golden spoon in the mouth.

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2002, 04:27:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Montezuma
Do the social darwinists here want to get rid of medicare also?


LOL.  Hey...that got me to thinking.  Ya know, I do want to get rid of social security.  I'm 35.  The way I see it, my grandparents generation created a nice little nest egg by billing thier future grandkids lol.  And OH my COD the baby-boomer's? They are going to spend every last penny of it...(first by mismanaging it, then by abusing it...then by sucking it dry, most of this has already started).  You watch.
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Offline Hortlund

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2002, 05:04:33 AM »
Everyone understands that in order to have a functioning nation-state you need to pay taxes. Some people will always feel that they pay too much taxes, others will always feel envy towards others (most often richer people), and demand that others pay more taxes. Some people will always try to milk the system. And some people will always try to screw the system. This all comes with living in a democracy. Freedom of opinion and freedom of speech sometimes gives you the opportunity to listen to the most absurd drivel. Sometimes it gives you the opportunity to listen to something really wise. There are ups and downs of living in a democracy. But then again, we all want to have it that way, because sometimes we all want to say whats on our mind, and when that time comes, we want people (who may or may not think we are complete idiots) to listen.

My personal opinion is that free health care is good for a nation. Just like free education. Why? Because a nation always benefits in the long run to have healthy (think free health care) and well educated (think free education) citizens. It really is as simple as that. If you dont want to listen to "normal" reasons as to why each and every living individual has the same "worth", then you should be able to listen to that socio-economic-reason. Personally I would like to ask you "hard liners" if you really want to live in a society where some people cant afford to get medical treatment if they are ill? And if you answer that question with a "yes" then my next question would be "Why?" What kind of society is that? I know how easy it is to sit in a forum like this and talk hard about how people get what they deserve, etc. But have you even tried to imagine what it would be like for that other guy? The poor one I mean. There is an old saying, before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Think about that for just one minute.

I live in Sweden, and here we have free education and free health care. And I have yet to hear about anyone having to travel to the US in order to get "better" medical treatment, or better education. Nor have I ever heard about any of our medical doctors who moved to the US in order to make more money. Perhaps some people value other things in life than money? Heck, some people actually might want to work as a doctor just to help other people. Imagine that huh...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2002, 05:06:47 AM by Hortlund »

Offline Fatty

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2002, 11:30:44 AM »
Free health care does not have anything to do with the original topic.  It is about whether or not people are allowed to spend money.

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2002, 11:42:27 AM »
LOL Fatty!

Are you really saying that someone told you won't be able to spend your money where you want to spend it?

:eek:

As long as there are people with money, there are private services offered to be bought. That's not going to change with public services being there or not.

If by miracle all hospitals would start to offer public services in the states and the quality of services would be so horrible like you like to describe as a counter argument.. What's stopping the doctors from starting private clinics and offer a better quality to those who can afford it? Answer is nothing.

That's exactly what's happening also in the nordic countries even though we don't have problems with quality. Private side is there mainly to get instant services instead of waiting a couple weeks in operation queue for example. You can get a heart operation (non acute reasons, the acute ones are operated always immediately also on public side) if you pay $10000 on the private side. Even from that private bill the government will refund 60% after you send the application to the social department.

In addition to that you still can have medicare plans at your job, reducing the possible costs even more.

Offline Toad

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #89 on: January 30, 2002, 11:45:11 AM »
IIRC, it was Sweden that did the most research on just how much tax the society will stand before the high taxes cause diminishing returns to that society.

I believe this study was undertaken because they had basically over taxed their economy to the point of serious damage.

Anyway, I think the number they came up with was ~40%. Above that point people spend more time trying to dodge taxes than making money, thus the economy suffers.

An old biblical passage comes to mind:

"For it is written  in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle  the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn." - 1 Corinthians 9
 

Yes, we have to have taxes. Just don't forget that the one who actually does the work needs some (most?) of the reward. :D

... and Fatty is right.. this thread was about spending your money as you choose.. even if that turns out to be for better health care.
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