Author Topic: Rush has finally gone too far  (Read 2414 times)

Offline capt. apathy

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2002, 01:34:56 PM »
ya, but our poor who can't get decent treatment here don't have the money to travel to other countries to get healthcare they can afford.  
seems to me that many think that the ability of a very small minority to have better care is more important than the masses having access to decent care.  prety messed up veiw IMO especially when the 2 goals are not mutualy exclusive.

do you guys really think that we would have to give up high quality care for the rich inorder to take care of the less fortuante?
the rich really have had no trouble making sure they are well cared for throughout history

Offline koala

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2002, 02:06:27 PM »
Gunthr said:

Quote
I enjoy listening to Limbaugh - but I do listen critically because of his bias. He isn't always objective.


Yeah, but at least Rush admits he's biased, unlike our so-called "objective" mainstream media :rolleyes:


Offline streakeagle

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2002, 02:20:41 PM »
Quote
Another one who doesn't know what communism is. The army is owned by the (elected) government, by your definition everyone who is in the army is communist.


Another one who hasn't served in the U.S. military. It operates almost identically to communist theory. You give up most of the rights you are protecting when you volunteer to serve and live in a system that is almost identical to the one which we are supposed to be fighting against:

Everything is provided to you: clothes, food, shelter, health care.
In return, you are required to "do your part" including sacrificing your life if need be (in all reality you fit the definition of an indentured servant: one step above slave because after you reach a certain time limit you are free again).
Everyone is "equal"... except just like Communism with a capital "C", there is a rank structure, so some are more equal than others.

But just because people are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to serve under this system does not make the individuals serving any more communist than the German people were Nazis. Likewise, quite a few love the system and abuse it to the fullest as so many Germans did under Nazi rule. Either way, I agree 100% with anyone who assesses that the U.S. military's organization fits the definition of communism.

In high school, there was a mandatory course called "Problems of American Democracy". It was basically a leftover from the 1950s propaganda which taught the evils of Communism. It provided very clear definitions of capitalism, communism, and "Communism". It made it all too clear that in an ideal world, unselfish people helping each other get through life as best as possible makes communism the clear choice compared to the cruel unforgiving history of capitalism. But, in the real world where people compete for limited resources, capitalism spanks Communism's bellybutton every time. Communism ensures that almost everyone gets equally bad food, shelter, and health care. Whereas the majority of the people in the U.S. live in conditions far superior to all but the most politically affluent under Soviet style Communism. Of course, a portion of the U.S. population lives in poverty conditions worse than many "third world" countries. Which system had to build walls to keep people in? Which system has to use barbed wire fences, border patrols, and the Coast Guard to keep people out? Propaganda aside, I served for 8 years under a system I hated to protect the system I love. Now, I want to enjoy the system I protected, not help convert it into the one I hated.

I don't vote for what I like or don't like, (i.e. personal opinion, especially over the short term), I vote for what I think will be best (based on logic, especially over the long run, as in long after I am dead). I would rather "waste" billions of dollars developing the ability to populate other planets than feed and clothe a bunch of people that can't figure out having kids is a bad idea when you can't even afford to take care of yourself. Both rich and poor will all die when this overcrowded planet exhausts its resources. But, in all probability, no one living today will ever benefit directly from such expenditures. Instead, lets see if we can keep everyone alive for 150 years or more even if they can't walk, talk, or eat or enjoy any aspect of life.

So go ahead, lets create one more goverment program which will consume more of an already overburdened budget to "help" people by keeping them healthy for free. Bad health is no accident. It comes from a combination of bad genetics and/or bad environment, both of which come from bad decisions made by the parents of the unhealthy individual.

Both nature and capitalism are cruel for a reason: rewarding good decisions and punishing bad decisions leads to improvement.

Beauracracy, liberals, and communism reward bad decisions and punish good decisions which leads to everybody suffering in the end.

I don't see the these two statements as opinions. I make them based on observations both from my own life and history in general. Of course two people can look at the same "facts" and draw very different conclusions. The place to resolve our differences in this country is at the voting booth. So far, despite 8 years of being ravaged by the liberal Clinton era with goals of a national health care system and banning guns completely, our government has done neither. Either the government is failing to respond to the will of the people, or the will of the people agrees with me. I'll keep my gun and pay for my own medical care :D

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Offline Gunthr

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2002, 03:30:32 PM »
Hi Koala, :)

 Yeah, I agree. Its the insiduous, sneaky bias practised by a lot of news outlets these days that you really have to watch out for...

There's currently a book on the best sellers list that exposes that very thing. The news aint just the news, anymore.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2002, 04:04:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
Hi Koala, :)

 Yeah, I agree. Its the insiduous, sneaky bias practised by a lot of news outlets these days that you really have to watch out for...

There's currently a book on the best sellers list that exposes that very thing. The news aint just the news, anymore.


No argument, the news is biased, always has been. I guess I'm just wondering when it wasn't? Go look up the "yellow press" of the late 19th century. Nothing new to the news. Just need to use your head and get your news from as many sources as possible.

Offline Gunthr

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2002, 05:06:06 PM »
"I guess I'm just wondering when it wasn't?" - Tahgut

It seems to me that the news at 6pm and 11pm 25-30 years ago was far less sensational in its presentation. I don't recall hearing the sarcastic tones, for example, or the innuendo that you might hear now. Of course, some stations are worse than others when it comes to the news.

The delivery now seems so much more dramatic, with much more opinion leaking through. I think the ideal reporting would be more or less nuetral in delivery, presenting the facts while going to some lengths to avoid opinion.

The trend is obvious. As far as I'm concerned, its a shift from hard news to "info-tainment"
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Offline Tumor

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2002, 09:47:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle

I didn't make the world a cold place, I just live in it. One of the worst days I ever had in the Navy was when the Captain of my submarine, under a general order from the Navy, assembled the entire crew on the pier to inform us how the Navy has adopted Total Quality Leadership (based on private industry's Total Quality Management) and that our sole job in the Navy was to provide superior customer service. Officers are no longer leaders of men, they are managers of human resources. If defending the nation with your life can be reduced to "serving a customer" (want some fries?), then certainly the health care industry can be treated the same way since it only exists to make profits as typified by the current hospital/HMO system.

Free medical means cheap doctors. If you have a magic formula for making people work harder for less pay, the rest of the world sure would like to know it. Rush didn't say people without money couldn't have health care, he said wealthy people are entitled to better health care since they can afford to pay the cost.

In the Soviet Union, there were certainly people who were exceptional at their jobs, whether they were aerospace engineers or doctors. But those individuals were usually compensated in someway. In a society where supposedly all people were treated equal, some were "more equal than others". I can assure you that the line for major operations was quite long in the USSR. I can also assure you that the politically affluent people never knew there was a line for anything. Rush's statement is not radical or inflamatory, it is a sad fact of life.


"TQM is DEAD"  Commandant, NCO Academy Lackland AFB TX, Summer 01.

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Offline Tumor

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2002, 09:50:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
The type of government and economy has everything to do with this argument.


..yes but, what I was elluding to in my (a) previous post was this argument happens with EVERY type of government.  The only difference is people aren't sent to the gulag or concentration camp or even the gallows for MAKING the argument.

As I stated previously.  With the right people leading the charge, this government has the "capability" to negate this argument.  Greed and Apathy keep that from happening.

:D
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Offline Tumor

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2002, 10:00:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrsid2


It's always funny to see the american discussion.. In first sentence you brag about being the most powerful and wealthiest nation in the world. Then in the second sentence you already whine that you can't pay same tax from your gasoline like euro's do because you can't afford it. You can't pay taxes for healthcare like euro's do because you can't afford it. You won't give a cent from your own pocket to someone who needs it, because you CAN'T AFFORD IT. ..
 


lol, I guess if you don't live with the best, you whine like the rest.  

This is about improving on what we have, not insulting other countries.

Who said we can't afford it? Why should we let our government tax us blind?
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Offline Tumor

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2002, 10:03:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr

I understand that many of the less complicated surgical procedures are performed by technicians trained to perform only that particular procedure, under the supervision of a doctor. For instance, if you needed a tonsilectomy, you would go to a place where technicians trained to do only tonsilectomies do thousands of them, day in -day out. Their protocals are written by a doctor who oversees the program. Because the technicians are not doctors, and only have limited training, the cost should be cheaper.



Uhhh....you know if the AMA Gestapo finds you out your in real trouble lol

;)
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Offline easymo

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2002, 10:19:37 PM »
Dr.s don't much care who pays them, the government, or insurance co.  This is no doubt why the AMA backed clintons half hearted attempt at national health care.  On the other hand, Insurance co. post Billions of dollars, in profit, annually.  Health care insurance would vanish overnight.  It is easy to figure this one out.

Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2002, 01:02:27 AM »
Greed brought this country into existence. Greed will be the death of this country. Greed is an inherent part of human nature that will never be eliminated. But as long as it is here, might as well harness it by using a system that turns greedy, selfish objectives into some form of common good, however harsh it may seem compared to nicer approaches that are doomed to failure.

My friends still in the Navy informed me of the death of TQL, but there is always some sort of leadership training under whatever name that will promote similar ideas. I wonder what they call the new leadership program and if it requires "Customer service is number one" banners hanging from everywhere. Those banners turned my stomach, even when I was going to a submarine tender as a "customer" needing "service". Almost as "fun" was the training on procedural compliance: "obey or be punished".
« Last Edit: January 29, 2002, 01:07:36 AM by streakeagle »
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Offline mrsid2

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2002, 02:57:17 AM »
Tumor: The point is that by moving tax funds from military budget to healthcare for example, you'd get free hospitals without paying a single cent more. You're not worried about the effect of the defence budget on your taxes are you?

And please save the 'defence is necessary' stuff because the medical expenses would be a drop in the bucket in that sum. You'd still get the same quality of defence..

The price of a single nuke will buy a lot of doctors to work for 1 year.

I'm not whining about your system, I couldn't care less. I'm only wondering why YOU whine about it. I'm only trying to bring a different point of view..

Like I said earlier, it's not logical that you should not afford to provide certain basic services to your countrymen if you're so wealthy.

But I guess in the end it's the american mentality; everyone for themselves, who cares about the rest. Afterall there are charity organisations for that.

I'd just like to see the chronically ill old eagler or streakeagle spewing these comments when he's paying the expenses from his pension :)

Streak: I guess it's easy to talk like that when you're 19 (was my guess right?) and you feel immortal. Humans have a big flaw however.. We get old.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2002, 03:09:31 AM by mrsid2 »

Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2002, 06:07:38 PM »
Quote
I'd just like to see the chronically ill old eagler or streakeagle spewing these comments when he's paying the expenses from his pension :)

Streak: I guess it's easy to talk like that when you're 19 (was my guess right?) and you feel immortal. Humans have a big flaw however.. We get old.


I wish I was still 19, because back then I had a much brighter view of the world and the future it holds for humanity.

I am turning 34 this Valentines day. I served on submarines for 8 years. I have a brother who had his appendix burst before the 90 days of employment required for health coverage at Disney was met. It is costing him about $30,000. I know what the price of medicine is. I also know that when I get old enough to need medical expenses there is a good chance our wise and wonderful government won't even be able to afford to pay me back via social security or medicaid programs despite all of the tax money I have already dumped in those programs to support the huge population of senior citizens we presently have. These "comments" of mine which you find so disaggreeable are based on all the crap I have watched going on around me.

Have you ever seen the results of military medicine? I.e. navy families being cared for at government facilities for "free". The quality and speed of service was/is atrocious. The price is not "free". As it stands, the cost got so high when it was free that the government decided to "improve" military health care benefits by making military families pay for coverage the same as other health insurance policies at normal companies. The government will tell you just how much annual health care costs and that it did take a significant chunk out of the military budget by covering the spouse and children of all service members. Who is a naive 19-year old here? To say health care is cheap and could come out of the military budget without even making a dent is ludicrous.

Try serving in the military and find out just how effectively goverment money is spent. Despite the money already being spent, the military is vastly underfunded. The aircraft are all approaching 30 years or more of age with no affordable replacements in sight, the most dangerous being the helicopters that crash on a daily basis. The crew of a ship may be away from homeport (and the wives and kids) for over 11 months of every year because there aren't enough ships to cover the commitments we have. In submarines, they frequently have to borrow crewmembers from other subs to have a large enough crew to go to sea. Incidents like Afghanistan only make a bad situation worse. I am willing to bet if you ask someone serving on an aircraft carrier, they will tell you how 3 or 4 more aircraft carriers with the people and aircraft to man them would really make their life a little more tolerable (i.e. get a chance to pull into homeport, maybe even get their long overdue tour of shore duty). Aircraft carriers cost billions, each aircraft on them cost millions, the crew costs millions, the training to enable the crew to operate a carrier costs millions. Retiring one aircraft carrier without a replacement saves a lot of money, but it also stretches our national security pretty thin.

Feel free to continue to support politicians that are willing to trade defense spending for social programs. But a nation without a defense won't have any social programs for very long. Not to forget how expensive health care gets everytime you fight a world war. Though, dead people don't need health care, so I guess it actually saves some money. Then again, dead people don't pay taxes and buy goods, so it is not quite the economic blessing it would appear to be.

Believing that high quality national health care could be achieved without a significant tax increase and/or compromising other equally or more important federal programs is ludicrous. If it could be done without significant drawbacks, congress would have already done it.

One other consideration for those who always point out how other countries somehow find a way to afford national health care programs: Most of them fall under the protective umbrella of the U.S. They have not and never will spend what we did on defense of not only our own country, but the entire free world. Without even totalling the numbers, I am quite certain that our Navy during its peak power at the end of the '80s could maintain control of the sea even if it had to oppose all of the remaining navies of the world. Given that other countries have downsized their militaries as much or more as ours, our Navy still may be more powerful than everyone else combined. The money these other countries saved by relying on our defenses is no small amount. Despite these savings, they still have to tax the hell out of their people to pay for health care. Successful people from these countries usually move here to pay lower taxes and get better health care ;)

I am so far from being a 19-year-old who doesn't know how the real world works. I am a very cold and cynical person at this point when it comes to believing that the government is here to help and that wishful thinking will make everything better. The only person that can ensure I have adequate health care is me. I decide where and how I work, which determines how much money I make, which determines how much health care I can afford both now in the form of health insurance, and later in the form of retirement savings. I decide what I eat and drink, how much I exercise, and how much rest I get, which all contribute to how healthy I will be 40 years from now. If I choose to live it up now, I will suffer greatly later. Even if I make all the right choices, DNA or bad luck could still throw some nasty health problems my way. If such is the case, I will do as humans have done for centuries: deal with it as best I can or die.

If people want the government to provide them with everything, all they have to do is join the military or get a government job. Either one will give you a good taste of what letting the government take care of you costs: lower pay, ever shrinking benefits, and in the case of your military, your freedom and life.
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Offline mrsid2

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Rush has finally gone too far
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2002, 06:27:31 PM »
I have served in the army and I know well that it can't ever be compared to the civilian side. Everything there is fubar from a civilians point of view.

Army = army. Civilian services = just that.

Army provides very spartan services and I would never expect to get a treatment similar to civilian side from an army hospital.

Just for curiosity: which are the countries that could significantly reduce their army budget because they were under the protective umbrella of the US?