Author Topic: Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)  (Read 2204 times)

Offline Wilbus

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2002, 02:24:13 PM »
Cc Tac Except for F4u¤ being 20Mph faster at the deck then the TA152.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline AKEagle+

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #91 on: February 06, 2002, 03:25:10 PM »
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Just think what would happen if the -4 was unperked.


Would the -1 , -D be used? I dont think so.


First of all I don't think that the purpose of perking is so that each model of a plane type gets it's 'fair share" of use.  It is to make sure that no one plane type dominates the arena like the C Hawg did.

The last stats for tour  24 are:

the F4U-1 has a 1997/1953  K/D

the F4U-C  5712/2716

the F4U-D 8948/12467

the F4U-4 585/236

Now that sort of tells me that the -D is more popular than the -1.  Yet the -1 has a better K/D. :eek:

For the 190s

FW 190A-5  6485/4257  nice 1.52 K/D for a non-perk :)
FW 190A-8  6372/5889
FW 190D-9 10599/7617         1.39 K/D  
FW 190F-8  967/1245  

TA-152H   383/250

So the 190s are a bit more popular than the F4Us, and other than the C Hawg, deadlier.

Again I would state that other than carrier assaults, you see darn few F4Us or F6Fs.

Also, the Dora is not a dominante ride in the arena, nor does it have a really high K/D.  Hardly the kind of stats that would justify perking it.  Oh yes sir!, in the hands of a master pilot it is a terrible machine.  But it is hardly overrunning the arena.

And that is exactly my point on the -4, in the hands of the average MA pilot it will not be this "terrible uber mosheen", such that you would have droves of dweebs in -4s swarming all over the arena.  The guns just won't allow 1 or 2 hit kills on the HO like the C Hawg or Spit.

At least give it no or very low perk points when flown from a carrier.  And maybe 10 pts max when flown from a land base.

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Offline Tac

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #92 on: February 06, 2002, 03:29:12 PM »
"Cc Tac Except for F4u¤ (4?) being 20Mph faster at the deck then the TA152"

Yes, just like the La7 & other powerplanes are faster than the -4 hog on the deck :)

Offline Rebel

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #93 on: February 06, 2002, 08:14:24 PM »
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I guess Rebel the point I was trying to make in my stats post is this. How does the plane compare in the ‘Real” Main Arena. There is a wide margin of pilot quality in the MA


That was my point too :)  The only thing is, I'm focusing one the simple majority.

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I have about a 1:1 K/D in the MA. Not very impressive.


Bullpucky!  Achieving a 1:1 K/D ratio in a main arena, ESPECIALLY one with so much emphasis on furballing is a major, major milestone.  Congratulations, bro!

For a furballer to pick up a 1:1 takes a lot of work, not to mention talent.  If ya wanna head over and learn the ways of the force, lemme know- I'll teach ya how to e-fight and make ya an absolute killer :)


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Yet I am ranked about 800/2800 (?) as a fighter pilot


Yup- this is what I was gettin' at.  Most pilots don't achieve a 1:1- hell I bet the average for the arena is probably .3 - .5 : 1 :)

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This is fairly realistic, as in real combat there are essentially two classes of pilots: Aces and Targets


True, to an extent.  No  pilot ever had 7 years of steady war, either.  And, believe it or not, most pilots preferred their tulips attatched, rather then being strewn about the ETO :D


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As we look at the numbers of planes flown, and the K/Ds in the MA, I think we could interpolate from these, that most planes are being flown way below their potential


Amen!  I saw a P51 last night dive in from 15K, and start TURNING in the middle of a furball.  Took him all of about 30 seconds to die (long enough for the closest Spit to see him, bring his cannons to bear, and let off a shot, hehehe)

This is just one of hundereds of examples I've seen in the Main.  I guess people don't view this sim as a sim- it's just a way to relieve stress to a lot of folks.  As for me, I strive to do my best, and fly like I would in RL (sans giant furball flights o' fancy- those are just pure adrenaline rushes :D )

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I doubt if the F4U-4 were unperked that it would be the ride of choice for the masses. Too easy to bleed off your E, and get caught low and slow. Yaks, LA7s, and Ponys would run you down quickly if they have alt, and Spits and NIKS would be in a feeding frenzy. I truly doubt if would be any more popular than the Dora, except that it would probably be the fighter of choice for carrier assaults.


You're probably right.  For a while, there might be a rush, but a hawg is a hawg, and people would just stick to Jabo- and even then they might take the 1C instead.

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I think the Pony, flown well, is the terror of the arena. Although you screw up and YAKs will eat you for lunch. Yet the Pony is not the most popular plane and has a 1:1 K/D. You fly that puppy well and with patience, and it will bring you many scalps.


As it damn well should be :D  

I bet that for every 100 P51's in the arena, 10-20 are being flown by guys who actually know how- it is in these hands that the P51 is able to keep her 1:1


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I think that the F4U-4, while a monster in the hands of a great stick, would be a seal pup on the ice in the hands of the average MA pilot


Here's where it gets tricky.  The question of "Is this machine's performance enough to compensate for the lack of training of it's pilot?"

In the case of the LA7, you could easily say a resounding "Yes!" to that question.  Her sheer power is enough to make her a menace even in the hands of the most green jocks.  

In the case of the P51, you could easily say "No" to the same question.  Flown incorrectly, she will kill ya guick- much the same as a Hawg.

But, in the case of an F4u-4, I can't really comment.  Her engine upgrade might be *just* enough to let a greenhorn slip by unscathed- however this may just as well not be the case- I can't comment.  I'm taking a -4 Hawg up tonight for a spin, I think.  

And I will be flying smart with her ;)

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Heya RedTail!

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Hogs really get a bad rap, they are great planes, I love em, but I wish I could fly them better. I would love a hand, as I 've been driving them for years, and I still know there are secrets yet undiscovred by me.


I'll be glad to show ya a few tricks :)
My K/D ratio in the Hawg stands at a solid 1:1, but that's only because my buddy Saw talks me into Jabo work where I always get killed, hehehe :)

Look for me in the Arena- I fly for Knights, my handle is Rebel352.

My first squad in WB's was the VMF-214- learned a LOT of good stuff there.

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I take the Hog -C up routinely, and it's a magnet for planes which seem to come out of nowhere!


I've taken her up just a few times,  and I like it a lot.  We can start out on this one if ya like ;)

BTW, I noted your convergence question- I'll look for ya tonight- I might be able to help there too.
"You rebel scum"

Offline Pongo

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #94 on: February 06, 2002, 08:30:01 PM »
Rebel
"There are two reasons for the "Uber-aces" of Germany-
#1- they were fighting from home turf. They could bail out, and in all likeliehood, be back at their home base in less than 24 hours (maybe a little longer if they decided to raid a local bar n' brothel- I know I would!)

Look up Franz Stigler- the man was shot down 14 times!


#2- They couldn't stop flying until either they were dead, or the war was over. No tour of duties,


While I agree that there is a very vocal LW core group of people, and I see them citing the examples you speak of, I just wanted to set the record straight. The deck was stacked in favor of LW pilots that could afford to bail out."

You mean to say in your opinion right?
While I would agree that both these issues where factors in the kill counts of the top German pilots they are not the central issue.

The primary thing that got the LW pilots their high kill scores was lots of bad guys..Period.

Their tactics and temperment added alot as well.

It would follow from your logic that the highest scoreing pilots when the Allies were defending would be the Allied pilots involved, correct?
I wonder who the top scoreing ace of the Battle of Britian was? The top 5?

I would be interested in the same numbers for Malta..

Definatly many promising RAF and USAF carrers were suspended by a stay in a stalag. But think..
How many german AC did someone like the late grate Gabby see in his years of fighting....
How many do you think someone like Pips Priller saw? You cant shoot down what you dont see.

The allies were target hungery most of the time. The Germans for most of the war had no trouble finding their next victim.

That is the big factor. You can even rack up a lot of kills in a Brewster Buffalo if there are enough targets.

Offline Rebel

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #95 on: February 06, 2002, 08:39:33 PM »
Right Pongo- couple that with the fact that they could bail out and make it home, and you've got a sure fire way to rack up some kills.

LW pilots WERE very aggressive- because they had to be.

I'm by no means degrading or minimizing their skill- they were excellent pilots.

BUT- there were NO tours of duty, NO replacements, and the most leave anyone got was two weeks.

As to your BoB question?

I have no idea.  Johnnie Johnson was up there- he had like 40.  But how long did the battle of Britain last?

And how long did the battle for Europe last?  

The targets point is a very big one.  Couple the fact that the LW was geared up to intercept, not search and destroy, with the fact that they were facing very long odds, and also with the fact that they were going home in one of two ways- after the war, or in a pine box.
"You rebel scum"

Offline Karnak

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #96 on: February 06, 2002, 11:09:53 PM »
Johnnie Johnson was a post-BoB RAF pilot.  I believe that 'Sailor' Malan was the top scorer of the BoB.  But in the RAF (and USAAF) they'd pull you back and have to run things from upstairs or train new pilots rather than have you fly till you died.

One interviewer once asked of, in an accusing manner, Johnnie Johnson (the leading Allied ace on the western front with 38 kills) why he hadn't gotten as many as the leading German aces.  He replied, matter of factly, that hed hadn't seen that many enemy aircraft during the entirety of the war.
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Offline Nashwan

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2002, 09:43:24 AM »
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It would follow from your logic that the highest scoreing pilots when the Allies were defending would be the Allied pilots involved, correct?
I wonder who the top scoreing ace of the Battle of Britian was? The top 5?

Luftwaffe of course, but considering the Luftwaffe were inflating their kills by around 3.5 to 1, that's hardly suprising.
Helmut Wick I believe was top, with 42 "confirmed" kills.
In fact, if you take just the Luftwaffe pilots who scored 10 or more kills, they accounted for very nearly every RAF fighter lost to Luftwaffe fighters.
If you believe those 10+ kill aces, the rest of the 1000+ Luftwaffe fighter pilots involved scored about 100 kills between them.

Offline Oldman731

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2002, 09:48:47 AM »
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Originally posted by Karnak
One interviewer once asked of, in an accusing manner, Johnnie Johnson (the leading Allied ace on the western front with 38 kills) why he hadn't gotten as many as the leading German aces.  He replied, matter of factly, that hed hadn't seen that many enemy aircraft during the entirety of the war.


That man was a class act.  He was hinting at what I believe (am I the only one?) - to wit, that Nazi pilot claims were grossly inflated.

- oldman

Offline Red Tail 444

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #99 on: February 07, 2002, 10:14:31 AM »
Rebel I also fly for the Knights, I'm from AW and I flew with the 247th Wildcats and now the 444th Air Mafia. I've seen you up, but never winged ya...I dont have AH voice, I dont think my 8MB card and its gameport can handle it.

I went Krakatoa last night, and burned up every one of my perk points trying to figure out the -C :) I should have gone offline, but it's too tempting w/ those cannons in the MA. I figured I'd get those points back X 10 with one decent run (I'm a gambler, but I crapped out last night )

However, maybe the trim characteristics are different due to the cannons (?) because I couldnt seem to pull out of any steep dive, even w/ manual trim...man, AH is teaching me how to be humble bigtime... I'm a dweeb all over again...I fly every night, except tonight. Also, I'm CST time zone.

Look for "Gainsie" and you found me. Thanks!!

Offline Rebel

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #100 on: February 07, 2002, 01:11:47 PM »
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I went Krakatoa last night, and burned up every one of my perk points trying to figure out the -C  I should have gone offline, but it's too tempting w/ those cannons in the MA. I figured I'd get those points back X 10 with one decent run (I'm a gambler, but I crapped out last night )


Groaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnn! :)  
Welp, looks like -1D's for a while then, hehehe :)

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However, maybe the trim characteristics are different due to the cannons (?) because I couldnt seem to pull out of any steep dive, even w/ manual trim...man, AH is teaching me how to be humble bigtime... I'm a dweeb all over again...I fly every night, except tonight. Also, I'm CST time zone.


No, that's called 'compression', and it's a real squeak.  You let your hawg get ahead of ya in the dive......not good ;)

I noticed you're in Northfield.  I live by Burnsville in Prior Lake ;)

Why no fly tonight?  No real problem- I'll just work on my perks- I GOTS ta fly a 262 sometime hehehe :)

-Reb
"You rebel scum"

Offline Red Tail 444

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #101 on: February 07, 2002, 02:28:08 PM »
hehe, great to know someone's in my neck of the woods...You're only about 30 mins away, give or take. Gfry, another 444th, lives in Fargo.

I have a date tonght - even AH takes a backseat to a cute girl :)I should be on latenight though.

Lookin forward to wingin ya, thanks!

Gainsie

Offline K West

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2002, 02:37:08 PM »
I'm not commenting about inflated claims on either side but the major difference between opportunites presented to the Allied or Axis pilots is the about same as those presented to defenders and attackers.

 The Allies had to go find the Axis while the Axis simply needed to wait till the enemy came to them - which happened every day from morning through the night.

 Even though the Axis pilots flew from day one in 1939 til lthey died or the war ended in 1945 let's start in late 1942 when the UK and US began bombing Occupied Europe and the LW contended the raids in earnest.  If an Axis pilot flew every day (as most did) and got 1 kill each day then by the time the time the Allied escort was a serious force to contend with (early-mid 44) an Axis pilot should well have had well over 365 kills.  How come only a few did and those who had got them mostly on the Eastern front?

 Westy

Offline Rebel

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #103 on: February 07, 2002, 03:15:13 PM »
Cool deal, bro- have a good date!  I've got school tonight (almost forgot! hehe).  I should be on around 11-midnight, and into the wee hours of the morn.

Westy- I really didn't want to get into that conversation.  I don't think the LW inflated it's kills- if they did, it was probably just as bad as the Allied pilots.

I'm done with all that ;)

See y'all tonight
"You rebel scum"

Offline K West

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Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)
« Reply #104 on: February 07, 2002, 03:34:10 PM »
"Westy- I really didn't want to get into that conversation."


 shhhh.   you'll spook'em