Author Topic: The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.  (Read 1770 times)

Offline Kanth

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2002, 06:34:16 PM »
The Jewish people born and raised in Germany, were they not Germans?
Does that make them Nazi's?

Kanth

Quote
Originally posted by crossjob
it is not right to say that all germans were nazis
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Offline Viper17

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2002, 07:02:36 PM »
Todays German AirForce. The MODERN Luftwaffe. still retains the iron cross. just like the brits kept there Bullseye:p This is one of the german fighters in the NEW luftwaffe. DON'T FREAK OUT PEOPLE. And the Swazstika had a meaning to the Nazi's. Just like our flag to americans. It was a symbol of pride to them. but to us modern day folk its a sing of hate. Think of it and reply.

Offline Bluedog

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2002, 07:28:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viper17
...........And the Swazstika had a meaning to the Nazi's. Just like our flag to americans. It was a symbol of pride to them. but to us modern day folk its a sing of hate. Think of it and reply.


What I've always failed to understand is why no one has any problem with displaying a Rising Sun , the Russian red star, the British roundel, the US Star and Bar, the Italian...er...what is that Italian thing anyway?....or any of the other roundels or insignias of the Air Forces of the world at that time.
Now, I understand that the swastika was not the marking of the Luftwaffe, that, rather, was the 'Iron Cross' Balkankruez.....the swastika being the symbol for the nazi party. And that all the others I mentioned , except perhaps the Rising Sun, are the Air Force identification markings of their respective countries.
What I want to know is....why is it any differant to show the Rising Sun than the Swastika? both are symbols of nations that committed atrocities ( BTW, ALL countries committed attrocities...it was war, a fairly atrocious state of affairs all round) The Brits fire bombed Dresden, the Japanese  were fairly brutal everywhere, the Americans nuked a target specifically chosen because of it's military insignificance, the Russians were none to gentle on the population of Germany when they got there, the Italians......? did they get up to any nastiness? dunno.......I can find a lot of first hand stories of Australian airmen straffing lifeboats, survivors in the water etc, so we arent exactly all squeeky clean ourselves.
What I'm getting at is this.....the whole show was some fairly gruesome, nasty, toejamty bussiness, attrocities were committed by all sides and in all theatres, why is the swastika so vilified, and yet the others are regularly shown?

PS, dont take this question, and the fact that I am a member of a LW squad to mean I have any sympathy for Nazism, I dont, I'm just curious as to the hypocricy of it all.

Blue

Offline Seeker

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2002, 08:19:15 PM »
"According to who, besides you?
I doubt british & us pilots were thinking of fighting against nazis rather than fighting against enemy air force pilots"

Wrong, I'm afraid. Alled armed forces were very aware what they were fighting, effective propaganda stating the Allied cause was part of the recruitment drive.


"Nazis = national socialists = german party
Luftwaffe = german air force
Let's keep these two separated"

As seperated as Chirchill and thier finest hour?

Offline SKurj

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2002, 08:35:20 PM »
When it comes to fight or die at the hands of your own country what do you do?
The Nazi's used fear and intimidation against their own country.

Calling all members of the german military durin ww2 nazi's... is just plain wrong +)

Of course if you want to inspire your troops to fight em, its a great idea!!

I've known Germans who fought in WW2, who were not Nazi's...


Media... can never be trusted during times of war
Media... can never be trusted period...
But I guess the Allied propaganda will never be forgotten



SKurj

Offline Viper17

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2002, 09:11:01 PM »
the Italian untill 1943 was what is on the MC.202 and .205. After that it was the Italian flag. And the one thin i know was when the kiled mussoline they hung him uoside down outside.

Offline streakeagle

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2002, 09:22:53 PM »
Black or blue, a swastika is just a symbol. If we have to ban any associated symbols everytime some nut commits major attrocities, then we will be left with no symbols at all. Should all red stars and bears be spit upon? I can assure you Stalinist USSR was every bit as evil as the NAZIs, they killed even more people for no good reason. Yet I don't see everyone upset about the Yak and La aircraft having red stars.

It's kind of like racism/sexist issues. Certain minorities get to declare certain insults to them off limits, while everyone else is expected to tolerate equally insulting words.

If I say "cupcake" in public, jury's would tend to forgive those who would beat me to a pulp for saying it. But if I say "pollack", "chinc", "gook", "redneck", "honky", "nip", or any of the other derogatory terms, few respond violently and they would be in jail if they did.

Likewise, if I say " bigtoe" most women flip out, but "squeak" is tolerated. What is the difference?

I would be annoyed if people came to school wearing Nazi SS uniforms because I would assume they aren't wearing them just because they look cool. I would also be annoyed if a WWII book retouched all of the photos to eliminate all of the swastikas. People shouldn't be promoting Nazi ideals, but they shouldn't be revising history either. Overreaction is just as bad as no reaction.

Of course I am sure some of the people at school are somewhat annoyed when I come dressed in European woodland BDUs since college types don't care for military types to begin with, much less ex-military types who just happen to like wearing camouflage once in awhile (I wear full battledress on test days :)).
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Offline Viper17

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2002, 09:28:30 PM »
dont eaven get me started on stalin. FU**ING COMMY ILL RIP HIS FU**ING MUSTACH OFF ANS SHOVE IT UP HIS A:eek: :eek: THAN MAKE HIM EAT IT FOR KILLING ALL HIS BEST MILITARY LEADERS AND KILING MOTHERS FATHERS BABYS AND EVERYTHING ELSE:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Offline funkedup

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2002, 09:44:21 PM »
A lot of people during the war and after the war referred to anything German during the war as "Nazi".

I think this was done partly to make a distinction between the Germans who did bad things under Nazi rule and the nice postwar Germans who are our allies and helped us defeat Communism.  

Nazis = Enemies from Germany
Germans = Friendlies from Germany  

Obviously they were largely the same people, but the labels helped people forget about past conflict and focus on working together to stop the Red Menace.  

Regardless of whether this is sound reasoning, it is how many people (at least in the US) have referred to them during and after the war, and any PC revisionist who wants me to refer to them differently can kiss my ass.  I doubt that any real German would have a problem with me drawing a clear distinction between the evildoers of 1939-1945 and the prosperous and friendly Germans of the postwar era.

And if the revisionists are trying to convince us that not all Germany military people 1939-1945 were Nazis, that is utter BS.  I don't care if they were a member of the party or not.  If somebody was paid by the Nazis, followed orders from the Nazis, wore Nazi symbols, and had Nazi symbols on their equipment and facilities, then I don't really care about their political views or party affiliation.  They were tools that Hitler used for evil, and they deserve to be lumped in with all the other Nazis who did the same.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2002, 10:01:31 PM by funkedup »

Offline funkedup

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2002, 09:45:02 PM »
Viper, meds dude, meds.

Offline Thrawn

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2002, 09:48:52 PM »
Just a symbol??

Symbols are meaning.

Offline streakeagle

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2002, 11:47:40 PM »
Does wearing an eagle make a person good or American? Or wearing a swastika  make a person bad or Nazi? Symbols are like any other tools, it is not the tool that does good or bad, but how it is used. So if a bunch of punk psycho kids wear black trench coats when they cap a bunch of people, now all kids that wear black trench coats are evil bad people? The swastika had a lot of meanings before Hitler ever tainted it, some of them even with the Christian faith. One man's flagrant misuse of an otherwise neat looking design shouldn't forever render it undisplayable.

I understand there were plenty of people who were emotionally and physically scarred by the events of WWII, and that these people are somewhat traumatized by even the sight of a swastika. However, their numbers are rapidly dwindling. Should their fears and hatred be passed on to another generation? The mistakes of the past should not be forgotten. But if they are never forgiven, you end up with a situation like the Middle East where there will be no peace until either all of the Israelis or all of the Arabs are dead.

There are also quite a few people that aren't too happy when they see a Japanese flag, but no one made Japan change its symbol.

As it is, there are quite a few people in the present world that are offended at the sight of any American markings. But I don't think it is the colors, stars, or bars that really bother them, its the aircraft delivering bombs and the rich companies exploiting their resources that really pisses them off.

If a party in our own country similar to the Nazis were to incorporate our stars and bars, would we change symbols? No, becuase this has already happened. KKK are all "red-blooded, flag-waving" Americans.

Hell, some states still fly the rebel battle flag. To some, it might be a symbol of slavery. To others, a symbol of a proud independent South that had the balls to stand up to the greedy North. Plenty of people were still slaves in the North until after the civil war, but the South got portrayed as the "bad guy". I am certain that even if the South had won, its days of slavery were numbered as all western civilization outgrew it. In the end, the North merely traded one form of slavery for another. How well did all those immigrants working in factories and building railroads live compared to slaves? What did all those freed slaves end up doing for a living and how did their quality of life change?

Symbols are in the eye of the beholder. One arrangement of red, white, and blue makes you a proud American, the other makes you a racist redneck. I say both flags mean the same things depending on who you are. The victor gets to write the history.

A WWII German aircraft with historically correct markings is nothing to be ashamed of, especially in a flight sim. Nobody should even be reacting to it beyond those who actually lost loved ones to the Germans. On the other hand, if I saw modern German MiG-29s sporting swastikas with "SS" for their tail codes, I would advise the French and Russians to look out, the tanks will be rolling any minute... and to hold out long enough for Britain and us to get there so we could all kick their bellybutton again :)
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Offline AKcurly

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Re: The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2002, 12:19:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wmaker
Couple of days ago in the CT I saw one guy saying that he would like to fly the G-2 but he feels unconfortable because of the swastikas painted on it. I explained to him that they have nothing to do with Nazi regime and that Blue swastika was national insignia of the Finnish Airforce between 1918 and 1945.

Just out of curiosity, Wmaker, where were the G2s manufactured?  Did the Fins build the G2s or were they built in Germany?

This is not a leading question ... just curious.

curly

Offline akak

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2002, 12:45:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731


Let's not, because they weren't.  

Equating National Socialists with a "German party" ignores the obvious; there weren't any other parties.  There was just the one.  By pretending that it had nothing to do with the rest of the populace, you're simply putting blinders on yourself to reach a happy thought that you want to reach.  Germany in WWII WAS Nazi Germany.  Those nice Nazi pilots you're trying to protect generally went through Hitler Youth training, identified themselves with the Fuehrer in adult life, and never questioned what they were doing to the rest of the world.  Not a lot of them involved in any plot to get rid of Hitler, that I've ever heard of.

And please don't substitute your desired thoughts for those of the US pilots in WWII.  The ones I've spoken to were quite clear in failing to see any distinction between Nazis and Germans.

- Oldman


The Luftwaffe also has the highest concentration outside of the SS of Nazi party members.  Most of Germany's aces here Nazi party members, not to mention die hard Nazi's.

Of all the armed forces the Werhmacht and navy had the least numbers of Nazi party members.  But just because they didn't have more Nazi's then the other branches, does that make them differen't? No, they still fought for the regime in its name and cause so they were Nazis by action.


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Offline elstevie

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2002, 12:52:15 AM »
If history serves me correct the "swastika" is like the Horse shoe in the USA, its just a symbol that has been around for a long long time thats suppose to mean Good luck.As a matter of fact in the early early 1900's there was a canadian womens hockey team that had the swastika on there uniforms.
Just my 2 pesos worth