The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.

[moose]

You know

This thread was supposed to be informative.

Now it's just another pissing match.

Personally, I don't care either way if there were swastikas on the LW planes. I don't believe in hiding from history, no matter what the cost, but also the restrictions Germany places on that symbol force companies selling a product in that area to comply.

Either way, it's just a silly symbol of times gone past. No use ruining some good information with this needless babble.

[Nath[BDP]]

I think some Luftwaffe pilots were Nazis and pervicaciously believed in Nazism. And others were simply just going along, not necessarily being a vehement Nazi; yet simply following orders and defending their homeland. Most of these guys didn't have the chance to see anything the 'other way', and were inculcated of pro-German Nazism starting in their teens.

Early on they probably had a strong belief that Germany would eventually win the war, so what was their reason for not fighting? None. I doubt that many even knew what atrocities the death squads were comitting. Some did witness atrocities, however, one example is Hermann Graf. Who, after the war, to the suprise of many other ex-LW pilots--became a staunch communist and denounced everything he did during the war as a pilot, "wrong".

I'm sure the same can be true of most Whermacht and some Waffen-SS.

[Saintaw]

I have seen this symbol on Shinto Temples in Japan, those temples dated back to 11th Century if I recall well.

Nazi germany didn't invent it, they borrowed it.

[mipoikel]

Originally posted by AKcurly


Just out of curiosity, Wmaker, where were the G2s manufactured?  Did the Fins build the G2s or were they built in Germany?

This is not a leading question ... just curious.

curly

G-2's were made in germany. Finnish pilots were also trained for G2 in germany. First G2's came to Finland in saturday 13.3.1943 and landed to Malmi airfield at 16.00 Pm.

Later Finland get also G-6 models and even G-8 models (2 x G8)

This is one G6 model and in my knowledge it still exists

[Fuzzybunny]

.

There are also quite a few people that aren't too happy when they see a Japanese flag, but no one made Japan change its symbol.

Didn't the U.S. force Japan to remove the "sun-beams" from their flag after the war, now it's just the red circle

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Oldman731


Let's not, because they weren't.  

Equating National Socialists with a "German party" ignores the obvious; there weren't any other parties.  There was just the one.  By pretending that it had nothing to do with the rest of the populace, you're simply putting blinders on yourself to reach a happy thought that you want to reach.  Germany in WWII WAS Nazi Germany.  Those nice Nazi pilots you're trying to protect generally went through Hitler Youth training, identified themselves with the Fuehrer in adult life, and never questioned what they were doing to the rest of the world.  Not a lot of them involved in any plot to get rid of Hitler, that I've ever heard of.

And please don't substitute your desired thoughts for those of the US pilots in WWII.  The ones I've spoken to were quite clear in failing to see any distinction between Nazis and Germans.

- Oldman

Let's do because they were.

When you claim that there was no difference between the nazi party and the Luftwaffe, you are plain wrong. Im not sure if you are aware of this or not, based on your post, but the simple fact of the matter is that the Luftwaffe had nothing to do with the nazi party. It can be said that there were no difference between the nazi party and the SS, since the SS was a part of the nazi party, and party membership was required for SS membership. The same cannot be said for the Luftwaffe. Do you understand the difference here?

Not seeing any distinction between Nazis and Germans has alot more to do with wwii propaganda than anything else. It has a psychological effect also. By dehumanizing your opponents (i e "we are fighting the nazis", instead of "we are fighting against other human beings, men, women and children") it is easier to do things to them that you would not otherwise be able to do. Few British night bomber crews pictured themselves firebombing women and children. They were either dropping on a target, or bombing nazis. The fact that the target was a city or town full of civilians, or the fact that women and children are just that, regardless of political orientation was ignored. This is all very understandable, because if they had had a full realization of what they did, not many of them would have remained sane for very long.  

In a war, people fight for alot of reasons. Some out of ideology, some out of love or hate, but most people fight simply because they have to. When your country is at war, for whatever reason, you will find yourself fighting in that war, regardless of what you think is right or wrong.

To say that Germany in 1933-45 was "Nazi Germany" and to imply that all Germans fought either because they were nazis, or to preserve nazism is not only both stupid and wrong. It is also insulting to all those men who fought and died -because their country was at war.

[pbirmingham]

Originally posted by elstevie
If history serves me correct the "swastika" is like the Horse shoe in the USA, its just a symbol that has been around for a long long time thats suppose to mean Good luck.As a matter of fact in the early early 1900's there was a canadian womens hockey team that had the swastika on there uniforms.
Just my 2 pesos worth

That's correct.  Here in Chicago, the building on the southwest corner of Wacker Drive and Michigan Avenue is decorated with a row of swastikas, about thirty feet (10 meters) up.

That said, Hitler and the Nazis pretty much cornered the market on that symbol.  There's no rehabilitating it, I think, and I tend to look askance at anybody who tries.

[mipoikel]

Did you know that there was plenty of jewish people fighting in finnish army during war. Three of them even get german ironcross medal but they denied to take it.

A little story about it:

Captain Salomon Klass was ordered to save a group of Germans who were rounded by russians. He did it because that was an order. His brothers in arms told him not to do it but Klass did it anyway cause he was a soldier.

Later 3 german gigh officers came to give Klass a Ironcross but he said that he is a jewish soldier in finnish army and he dont want anything from germans. German officers became white and walked away....

[pbirmingham]

Originally posted by funkedup

And if the revisionists are trying to convince us that not all Germany military people 1939-1945 were Nazis, that is utter BS.  I don't care if they were a member of the party or not.  If somebody was paid by the Nazis, followed orders from the Nazis, wore Nazi symbols, and had Nazi symbols on their equipment and facilities, then I don't really care about their political views or party affiliation.  They were tools that Hitler used for evil, and they deserve to be lumped in with all the other Nazis who did the same.

After all, it's not like non-Nazi Germany would have prevailed, had these non-Nazi warriors won.  The Nazis, and only the Nazis, would have benefitted, to the incalculable woe of the rest of the world.

Don't get me wrong -- I've visited Germany, I love German culture, and I (sort of -- at least I can tell when a train conductor is asking me for change) speak the German language.  All the Germans I've known speak of "die Hitler-zeit" as a great tragedy -- I had an exchange professor who couldn't bear to speak about these events that happened before he was born.  I think it's well and fitting that the United States and Germany are such close allies now.

I think, however, that some of the apologists go way too far.  These non-Nazis may not have been enthusiastic supporters of Hitler's policies, but they fought and died to protect the government that Hitler created.  They deserve respect for some impressive feats of arms, and forgiveness, but let's not go equating them with Hans and Sophie Scholl -- they fought in the name, and to the benefit, of an evil regime.

[pbirmingham]

Originally posted by Seeker
"According to who, besides you?
I doubt british & us pilots were thinking of fighting against nazis rather than fighting against enemy air force pilots"

Wrong, I'm afraid. Alled armed forces were very aware what they were fighting, effective propaganda stating the Allied cause was part of the recruitment drive.

Frank Capra didn't just direct "It's a Wonderful Life," after all.

(Capra directed the "Why We Fight" series; it definitely made few distinctions between the Nazis and other Germans -- after all, what does it matter what the person shooting at you *believes*?)

[pbirmingham]

Originally posted by streakeagle

Hell, some states still fly the rebel battle flag. To some, it might be a symbol of slavery. To others, a symbol of a proud independent South that had the balls to stand up to the greedy North. Plenty of people were still slaves in the North until after the civil war, but the South got portrayed as the "bad guy". I am certain that even if the South had won, its days of slavery were numbered as all western civilization outgrew it. In the end, the North merely traded one form of slavery for another. How well did all those immigrants working in factories and building railroads live compared to slaves? What did all those freed slaves end up doing for a living and how did their quality of life change?
 

You are heading down a rhetorical dead-end.  By your reasoning, it would be better to live under the Nazis, than to die fighting them.

No immigrant factory worker ever had their children sold to another factory owner, if I recall correctly.

Again, you are building an extremely shaky argument.  Get out now, before it collapses on you!

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by funkedup

And if the revisionists are trying to convince us that not all Germany military people 1939-1945 were Nazis, that is utter BS.  I don't care if they were a member of the party or not.  If somebody was paid by the Nazis, followed orders from the Nazis, wore Nazi symbols, and had Nazi symbols on their equipment and facilities, then I don't really care about their political views or party affiliation.  They were tools that Hitler used for evil, and they deserve to be lumped in with all the other Nazis who did the same.

So, anyone claiming that not all German military personnel in wwii were nazis is a revisionist?
But either way, it doesnt matter, because nazi or not, all Germans who were in Germany between 1933-45 deserve to be lumped in with the nazis.

Well, to me (and indeed to the rest of the civilized world) it is a bit more complex than that. In the western civilization specifically we tend to see guilt as an individual thing. Arguments along the lines of "Hitler was a evil nazi and he ruled over all Germans, this guy is German thus it does not matter whether he was a nazi or not, he was a tool Hitler used for evil, and he should be punished like all other nazis." dont hold very well in any court.

To me, and indeed to all civilized legal systems on the entire planet, guilt is individual. We also play around with such strange concepts (you obviously care little about) as criminal intent. In my opinion, there is a difference between the female switchboard operators at the Reichstag, and some SS butcher roaming the countryside gunning down civilians. To you there cant be any difference between those, since those female switchboard operators were members of the SS (they had to be). Is there a difference between a 17 yr old kid manning a Flak gun outside Berlin in 1945, a radio officer on a submarine, or a concentration camp guard? No? How about a 11 yr old kid who joined the Hitler youth when he was 4, a 32 yr old SD interrogation leader, and a 55 yr old infantryman on the eastern front? Same guilt? Oh, wait, guilt doesnt matter, they should just all be lumped together since they were all Germans..er..nazis.

EVERY single German military man or woman in wwii followed orders from the nazis (since Hitler was Supreme commander of all German forces), and they all wore nazi symbols on their uniforms…I dont think anyone was payed by the nazis though (although I am a bit unsure about the SS units), but since their pay was ordered by Hitler, we can ignore that petty detail. Guilty on all accounts huh.

But I dont want to be accused of being a revisionist here, so I think I'll shut up now.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Hortlund

Let's do because they were.

When you claim that there was no difference between the nazi party and the Luftwaffe, you are plain wrong.

Hmmm.  Did I claim there was no difference between the Nazi Party and the Luftwaffe?  Don't think so, but I apologize if I did.  What I MEANT to claim was that there was no difference between the Luftwaffe and the Nazis.  I do not buy your notion that the term "Nazi" equates to "membership in the Nazi party."  Of course not all Germans were members of the Nazi party, although, as Akak pointed out, the Luftwaffe had a very high proportion.

Instead, what I meant to say was that Luftwaffe personnel identified themselves with, and fought and died to preserve, spread, and, when that failed, to defend, the ideals of the Nazi party.  Those ideals were inextricably part of the society created in Germany after WWI.  It took masses of treasure and millions of lives to rid the world of these values.  I am frankly offended when people try to make nice about this by attributing the horror of Naziism to only a few key guys at the top who somehow hypnotized a whole nation and then bent its unwilling population to their nefarious means through application of terror.  You don't have to search hard to find newsreels of thousands of happy Germans cheering Hitler on in 1939.  So long as things were going their way, they were pleased to overlook the odd disappearance of the Jews and Communists from their midst, and to "set things right again" by absorbing Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Holland, Denmark, Belgium, Norway, Yugoslavia....and, hard to believe, the list goes on.  Now I'm supposed to believe that these folks really detested Hitler and would have refused to go around conquering other countries if it weren't for the Gestapo?

Im not sure if you are aware of this or not, based on your post, but the simple fact of the matter is that the Luftwaffe had nothing to do with the nazi party. It can be said that there were no difference between the nazi party and the SS, since the SS was a part of the nazi party, and party membership was required for SS membership. The same cannot be said for the Luftwaffe. Do you understand the difference here?

Yes.  Please see my correction, above.

Not seeing any distinction between Nazis and Germans has alot more to do with wwii propaganda than anything else.

Not in my case, at least.

It has a psychological effect also. By dehumanizing your opponents (i e "we are fighting the nazis", instead of "we are fighting against other human beings, men, women and children") it is easier to do things to them that you would not otherwise be able to do.

True.  You might, for example, dehumanize the Jews so that you wouldn't feel so bad about trying to exterminate them.

Few British night bomber crews pictured themselves firebombing women and children. They were either dropping on a target, or bombing nazis. The fact that the target was a city or town full of civilians, or the fact that women and children are just that, regardless of political orientation was ignored.

I believe this phenomenon was first observed in the bombings of Guernica, Rotterdam, London and Coventry.

This is all very understandable, because if they had had a full realization of what they did, not many of them would have remained sane for very long.  

Many of them didn't live long enough to go insane.

In a war, people fight for alot of reasons. Some out of ideology, some out of love or hate, but most people fight simply because they have to. When your country is at war, for whatever reason, you will find yourself fighting in that war, regardless of what you think is right or wrong.

Perhaps true, but beside the point.  People who disagree with the causes they fight for make very poor armies.  Examples include the Russians in WWI, the Italians in WWII, the Americans in Viet Nam.  We did not see this happen with the Germans in WWII.

To say that Germany in 1933-45 was "Nazi Germany" and to imply that all Germans fought either because they were nazis, or to preserve nazism is not only both stupid and wrong. It is also insulting to all those men who fought and died -because their country was at war.

Stupid I may be, wrong often, but you, by pretending that the Germans in WWII were effectively no different from anyone else, are being deliberately ignorant.  

- Oldman

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Oldman731

Instead, what I meant to say was that Luftwaffe personnel identified themselves with, and fought and died to preserve, spread, and, when that failed, to defend, the ideals of the Nazi party.

[/b]
I'm not really sure how to answer this. From what you write, you seem to have an awful lot of knowledge about how and why Luftwaffe personnel fought and died in wwii. Let me start out by asking you if you have any kind of source for your statements, or if you are writing on a gut feeling here. Or perhaps you are using some abstract way of thinking here...lets start in this direction: What where the ideals of the nazi party that these men fought and died for? And how do you know the personal motivation behind the "Luftwaffe personnel"? No offence, but to me your statement sounds like an enormous generalization that undoubtedly is true in some cases, but false in many many more.  

Those ideals were inextricably part of the society created in Germany after WWI. It took masses of treasure and millions of lives to rid the world of these values. I am frankly offended when people try to make nice about this by attributing the horror of Naziism to only a few key guys at the top who somehow hypnotized a whole nation and then bent its unwilling population to their nefarious means through application of terror. You don't have to search hard to find newsreels of thousands of happy Germans cheering Hitler on in 1939.

[/b]
Who ever said anything like that? Support for Hitler was massive back in 38-40. But you have to realize and understand that the true horrors of nazism hadnt shown its face yet...that started later, in 1941, and it wasnt something that was shown on the newsreels in Germany either. But what is your point with that "fact"? Suppose I show you some newsreels from 1941 where US troops put japanese americans in barbed wire camps, and people cheering that. Would that prove anything whatsoever?

So long as things were going their way, they were pleased to overlook the odd disappearance of the Jews and Communists from their midst, and to "set things right again" by absorbing Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Holland, Denmark, Belgium, Norway, Yugoslavia....and, hard to believe, the list goes on. Now I'm supposed to believe that these folks really detested Hitler and would have refused to go around conquering other countries if it weren't for the Gestapo?

[/b]
Here we are drifting into some psychological analysis of the German population as a whole I see.
First, countrary to the Hollywood version of things, Gestapo was not responsible for keeping the general population in order, the SD was. If your gonna make smirk remarks, make them right. Second, you try being a soldier in any army and decide that you dont particularly like the orders you are given. What are you gonna do? Complain? No..you follow orders..because that is what soldiers do. But I fail to see what your point to all this really is. Are you building some kind of argument here along the lines "The Germans cheered for Hitler in 34-41, therefore they were all nazis and, aware of it or not, in on his plot to murder millions of people". Please clarify what you are trying to say.  

True. You might, for example, dehumanize the Jews so that you wouldn't feel so bad about trying to exterminate them.

[/b]
Exactly. The more you dehumanize your opponents, targets, victims, the easier it is to kill, maim or butcher them. That is why we should not try to dehumanize anyone, anyway, anymore (such as by generalizing and oversimplifying for example).

I believe this phenomenon was first observed in the bombings of Guernica, Rotterdam, London and Coventry.

[/b]
Actually I doubt that (why did you leave out Warsaw and Belgrade btw?). I dont think any British bomber crews took part in those missions.

Many of them didn't live long enough to go insane.

[/b]
Nor did their victims on the ground...

Perhaps true, but beside the point. People who disagree with the causes they fight for make very poor armies. Examples include the Russians in WWI, the Italians in WWII, the Americans in Viet Nam. We did not see this happen with the Germans in WWII.

[/b]Ah, but how then, do you explain the French? (couldnt resist).
The reason we didnt see this in Germany was the nature of the conflict the soldiers were involved in. In 39-43 they were pretty much winning all the time, no one gets disillusioned by that. 44-45 it was a struggle for the very survival of themselves, their families, indeed their entire nation. This is especially true on the eastern front. You dont go sulk in a corner then, that option is closed.  

Stupid I may be, wrong often, but you, by pretending that the Germans in WWII were effectively no different from anyone else, are being deliberately ignorant.

[/b]
I'm not being deliberately ignorant here. But apparently I am ignorant. You tell me what the difference was between an average German soldier and an average US soldier in feb 1945. Besides the flag they fought under.  Do you actually think that German soldiers in wwii fought for the sake of nazism? Do you actually think that a majority of Germans in 33-45 were pro-nazi? (key question to follow) How many Germans do you think would have supported the nazis had they known about what Hitlers real plans were? And before you answer that, read your sentence about dehumanizing groups of people up there again.

[straffo]

Ah, but how then, do you explain the French? (couldnt resist).

About the same reason ... WWI was such a butchery that the french soldier were not "motivated" and the great head-quarter was full of incompetent chief (*)

As I'm ma familly was not french at this time I will use the exemple of my wife's familly :
her  2 grand-grand-father  were involved in WWI one was killed at Verdun the other was "gazed" and died 5 year after the war ...

I asked my collegue in front of me : of his 4 grand-grand-father (yes he is youngest than my wife ) 3 were wounded (one so badly that he didn't survived the war and the other was lucky enought to not being in front line but in Artillery.

If you do a short trip in any french village you will see a lot of "monument au mort" (death monument?) having lot's of names on it ...

BUT if you look at the rate of losses for french troops during the 1940 campaign you will be surprised it was huge for the relative short duration of this campaign (almost equivalent of the US losses for the ETO)

(*) incompetent for the new form of war the German used.