Author Topic: The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.  (Read 1768 times)

Offline Wmaker

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2002, 10:55:20 AM »
My ISP was acting up and the board was unreachable for me so couldn't come here to stop this BS. Though I suspect that nothing I'd said would have made any difference :(. There's actually nothing wrong with the discussion itself but...I *THINK* IT'S IN THE WRONG THREAD!! :mad: I came to general discussion to post "a FYI-post" regarding AH, a post that I could punt up from time to time for the new guys. Hmm...I guess I won't be doing that now... Right now this post has nothing to do with AH and is O'Club material...frankly, I hope someone at HTC deletes this.

Moose,

for trying to stop this nonsense.

I'm at fault here too tough. I was going to put a note in the end of my post to prevent this but didn't because I tried to be open-minded and not always assuming the worst...a bad misjudgement on my part, I know.

Now, I hope everyone stops this "nazi-nonsense". In time I'll post this again with a proper note.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2002, 10:58:10 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Vector

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2002, 11:09:35 AM »
S!
It is funny how these threads seems to develope way off the subject :)

Lighteng up all, look, they are laughing at you!


Follow this link to read some facts about swastika.

Ketil got it right, it's a Pre-WW II United States Army 45th Division patch!

Offline sourkraut

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2002, 11:34:56 AM »
Wow does this thread need to be locked or what?
This is one of those arguments that cannot be won.
While everyone's position is based on some set of
facts, the positions themselves are skewed by
your perspective and emotions.

I have a co-worker who is a philosophy major.
He will take any position and argue for it, just for
arguments sake. Very freaking annoying.

Offline Wanker

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2002, 12:23:36 PM »
It really doesn't matter who was a Nazi and who was not. In my opinion, the German people as a whole were responsible for Hitler and thus for World War II. After President Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor, Hitler called for elections to confirm his party's rise to power. The German people could have voted "nein", but they didn't. 90+% voted "Ja".

After President Hindenburg died, Hitler abolished the the title of President, and instead decreed himself Fuhrer and head of state. Once again, a vote was held to affirm this, and the German people once again voted "Ja" overwhelmingly. Another vote of confidence was held after the Nazis' took away the rights of free speech and freedom of the press, and abolished the unions. Again, the German people said "Ja".

The German people were responsible for electing Hitler and the Nazis and for keeping them in power in the crucial time between when Hitler was appointed chancellor, and when the Nazis' removed all human rights. They had the chance to overthrow them legally, and they didn't.

If you want to learn about this subject, an excellent book to read is "Adolf Hitler", by John Toland. Or "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer.


One last thing. Even though the German people deserve most of the blame for WWII, the Allies also deserve a huge amount of blame for coming up with the oppressive treay of Versailles after WWI.

Offline Wmaker

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2002, 12:34:29 PM »
Oh man!! What part of my last post didn't you guys get ?!?
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Offline Seeker

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2002, 12:38:10 PM »
"One last thing. Even though the German people deserve most of the blame for WWII, the Allies also deserve a huge amount of blame for coming up with the oppressive treay of Versailles after WWI."

Very much the key to it all, that, and the way the victorious Allieds helped the vanquish rebuild their nations post WWII.

Further, we should also remember one of the key purposes of the EC: to so firmly intwine the administrative and commercial concerns of Europeans as to make armed conflict an act of civil war.

And it seems to have worked, in a European context.

Offline Charon

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2002, 12:46:13 PM »
I have to agree with Oldman, and there's not much sense in reposting his well-developed arguments.  I do get a kick out of the "defending the homeland" crowd. Yeah, they were bravely defending the homeland in Poland, the Low Countries, France, BOB, Greece, N. Africa and Russia...

The overwhelming support for Hitler and his general policies among the German people, party members and otherwise, is well documented. The documentation consists not only of secondary sources but by primary sources including town records, Gestapo records, film, audio and many Germans from the era who are alive today. This popular support may have waned somewhat by 1945, but it never collapsed. You can clearly look at countries where it did (Italy springs to mind) and draw a direct comparion.

Some, of many, interesting books to read on the rise of Nazism are: "The Nazi Seizure of Power - The Experience of a Single German Town 1930-1935" by William Sheridan Allen and "Himmler" by Peter Padfield. Now, these are not as interesting and filled with daring-do like "The First and the Last," for example, being filled with dry research and such, but they do tell what the Nazi's and the Greman people were all about. Try them sometime (and again, any number of others dealing with the rise of Nazi power). A former co-worker's father could also be a resource, I suppose, since he felt Hitler had the right idea until the day he died. I don't think he was a party member.

With the German military, well, they made a deal with Hitler that guaranteed his support of them by their support. The LW cannot be excluded, and while there may have been some differences between the level of Rudel's Hitler worship and Galland's Hitler worship, they supported a war of domination based on mythological racial theory and the greed for territority.

The senior officers hid/hide behind that "Oath of Honor" to explain why they couldn't do anything to stop Hitler. Canaris was a real hero, however, and showed that at least someone in high military/intelligence circles had a true sense of honor. The assassination conspirators eventually somewhat regained German military honor, though on train of though strongly suggests that it wouldn't have happened had Germany been doing better in the war under Hitler's leadership.

Were the German people too afraid of the evil Gestapo to stand up? The much maligned "Intellectual Elite" minority soon learned not to speak too loudly, though the members of The White Rose stood up for their principals and paid for it. The White Rose. However, the vast, well-documented historical record suggests they were the minority and had more to fear from their neighbors than some boogey man in a leather jacket.

Gestapo records show that they functioned primarily as collectors, who acted mainly on leads sent in by the local citizens. Here's a link that covers it in greater detail:Gestapo Records

I saw a History Channel documentary (I believe produced by Germans) on this as well. They took one record, of an "odd" woman who looked a bit too masculine and had "unusual" friends that visited her regularly -- the implication being that she was a lesbian. After enough of these complaints came in (there were more than a few) they acted and she went to one of the camps, where she was exterminated. The German crew interviewed one of the people who filed a complaint. The sweet looking, elderly grandmother just couldn't understand why she was being persecuted by the film crew. She said something like, "Why are you bothering me? I didn't kill her!"

That kinda sums this revisionist attitude up for me. "Oh no, It wasn't me! What choice did I have! I just went along with the program!" Bull toejam.

To get back on topic, Finland was allied with Germany, but it had tough choices to make and faced a clear threat from the Soviet Union. The historical record suggests that Finland, while cooperating with the Nazis to fight the USSR, clearly worked to deflect the "Aryan" supremacy and Jewish deportation efforts that were encouraged by Germany (unlike some of the occupied counties, who participated willingly in some cases). They further managed to avoid becoming a full satellite communist nation after the war, which shows a real talent for threading a needle.

Charon

Offline Wmaker

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2002, 12:54:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wmaker
My ISP was acting up and the board was unreachable for me so couldn't come here to stop this BS. Though I suspect that nothing I'd said would have made any difference :(. There's actually nothing wrong with the discussion itself but...I *THINK* IT'S IN THE WRONG THREAD!! :mad: I came to general discussion to post "a FYI-post" regarding AH, a post that I could punt up from time to time for the new guys. Hmm...I guess I won't be doing that now... Right now this post has nothing to do with AH and is O'Club material...frankly, I hope someone at HTC deletes this.

Moose,

for trying to stop this nonsense.

I'm at fault here too tough. I was going to put a note in the end of my post to prevent this but didn't because I tried to be open-minded and not always assuming the worst...a bad misjudgement on my part, I know.

Now, I hope everyone stops this "nazi-nonsense". In time I'll post this again with a proper note.
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Offline Oldman731

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2002, 01:32:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wmaker
Right now this post has nothing to do with AH and is O'Club material


(Oldman steps back)

All right, Wmaker.  Sorry to have made a fuss in your nice place here.  We'll be leaving now.

(Glares at Vector and Hortlund)

I'll see YOU TWO over in the O-Club.

(Pushes through door, kicking a small dog on his way out)

- Oldman

Offline Vector

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2002, 01:47:59 PM »
:D

Offline straffo

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2002, 02:36:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by banana

One last thing. Even though the German people deserve most of the blame for WWII, the Allies also deserve a huge amount of blame for coming up with the oppressive treay of Versailles after WWI.


tss tss ....

Ever heard of 1870 or 1815 ?


In fact the truth is something like that :

Grr'ompfff  the prehistoric man raped kte'rrr's wife  soon after kte'rrr killed Grr'ompfff and he asked for reparation and ............

ALL STARTED !

Offline Wilbus

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2002, 04:39:32 PM »
Wmaker made this post to educate some people and was nice enough to post a link with some nice history, if you're gonna discuss politics, don't hijack the thread, do it in the O'club, even I might join there.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline streakeagle

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Re: The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2002, 06:42:15 PM »
I agree that the argument belongs in the O-club, but I disagree about the subsequent arguments being off-topic from the original post. Whenever someone states an opinion about anything on this board, it is to be expected that others with contrary opinions will reply. This post clearly includes the argument that a blue swastika is ok because it is Finnish while a black one is not because it was used by Nazis. I think it is well within the topic to question this by asking "what difference does the color make?" and "should the swastika be synonomous with Nazis?".

In my opinion, the swastika in any color appearing on a German WWII plane as a historical fact has no evil intent by itself. No one should flip out when they see a simulated German aircraft painted as it was in reality.

The majority apparently feels that simply displaying the swastika on anything indicates direct support or sympathy for the Nazi cause.

If a German ban on swastikas is what restricts the markings on AH aircraft (as HiTech has confirmed in the past), is the German law written so specifically as to permit blue ones?

Saying that blue ones turned 45 degrees are too different from proper black ones to be offensive is absurd. If I were a Nazi supporter and I knew black swastikas were banned (as in Germany), but blue ones are acceptable, then I would start wearing armbands with "Finnish" markings. I am sure Nazis wouldn't care about the color change. Likewise, most people have trouble telling a Finnish 109 from a German 109, or this wouldn't have even been posted at all.

I do have to say that I disagree with the posters last statement. Whether they were flown or marked as Swiss or Finnish, Bf109s were most certainly Nazi planes and the money those countries gave to Germany to purchase those planes helped promote the Nazi cause. Just as Germans who did not take action to stop Hitler were held accountable, people and countries that monetarily supported his efforts should be considered just as liable.

If symbols like the swastika are so offensive that no one should ever display them, I submit that the 109 and the Stuka are also symbols just as strongly associated with the Nazis and as such shouldn't be in the game at all. But somehow most people will denounce me for saying the swastika is "just a symbol" while happily flying their German and Finnish 109s to victory.

When the US  Air Force created Red Flag to simulate fighting against the USSR, they realized to get the full training value, proper simulation involves every aspect: color schemes, insignias, and even thinking like your enemy. The aggressor pilots worked in quarters complete with Communist magazines.

If AH is a simulation, nobody should fault people willing to fly German planes as authentically as possible. It should make the game both a better simulation and more entertaining.

Since AH is purely a game, nobody should fault HTC for omitting Axis aircraft entirely since the only purpose they serve is historical accuracy and are otherwise totally disrespectful of anyone who died fighting the Axis.

In the end, whether people want to admit it or not, this is a game that involves simulating killing other people purely for fun. All the people playing this game don't have a problem with that, why should it matter what markings are on the aircraft of such a game?

Quote
Originally posted by Wmaker
Couple of days ago in the CT I saw one guy saying that he would like to fly the G-2 but he feels unconfortable because of the swastikas painted on it. I explained to him that they have nothing to do with Nazi regime and that Blue swastika was national insignia of the Finnish Airforce between 1918 and 1945. He believed right away and we could discuss about it in good understanding without any hard feelings. He thanked for the lesson and took G-2 for a spin. :) If you are reading this, . Everyone I've tried to explain it haven't taken it so well... I've known this as far as I can remember and that's why I always forget how it isn't very clear to everybody, especially for foreigners.

The following is a quote from the home page of VLeLv Icebreakers (http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/). They are currently flying in WarBirds, WW2OL and Il-2. I highly recommend visiting on their pages, especially the history section. Anyway, what I came to tell you I couldn't say any better than this:

For those not "in the know" do not start shooting off your mouth about our squadron insignia before you know better. That is not the nazi swastika you see there, but a Von Rosen cross which was the insignia of the Finnish Air Force (FAF) from 1918 to 1945 - estabilished way before a certain Austrian corporal made a similar symbol infamous with his national socialistic ideology. For that very reason the FAF was forced to change it's insignia to the current blue and white roundel.

   
The common foreigner would have not believed it has nothing to do with the nazis anyway. But as you are now here, we can safely assume that you are either a current or potential WarBirds pilot. Which means you probably are educated enough in the history of aerial combat to indeed know better. In case you are not, here is a quick crash course on that certain aspect of FAF history:

It is called a Von Rosen cross because the first two airplanes, Thulin Parasols - licence-built copies of a Morane Saulnier design - that formed the FAF were donated by a Swedish count Erik Von Rosen shortly after Finland's independence from the chaos of Russian revolution. The cross was the traditional symbol of good luck for the Von Rosen family. They probably had picked it up from Indian Aryan mythology where the swastika is a symbol for the Sun and, incidentally, good luck.

We display the cross proudly, aware of its true and lethal heritage, and furious at a crazy dictator who stole and dishonoured it. Our Hornets would sure look more handsome with the Von Rosen crosses on their shiny plastic wings. Oh well, those were the days of iron planes and er... depleted uranium men.


I hope everyone who reads this tries to explain/correct a person who is referring to G-2 as "nazi-plane" or similar in AH.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2002, 06:49:23 PM by streakeagle »
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Offline Staga

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2002, 07:12:31 PM »
StreakEagle:

"Whether they were flown or marked as Swiss or Finnish, Bf109s were most certainly Nazi planes and the money those countries gave to Germany to purchase those planes helped promote the Nazi cause"

Actually those planes and money helped to keep Finland sovereign country and propably saved half scandinavia same time.

StreakEagle you're just a another amurrican who doesn't have a clue :)

Offline Staga

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2002, 07:15:00 PM »
oh btw I'm sure it's not your fault, some sources say U.S education system is not the best in the world :)