Author Topic: The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.  (Read 1771 times)

Offline streakeagle

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2002, 07:52:32 PM »
So survival at any cost, even aiding one of the most evil regimes the world has ever seen is acceptable?

It is equally regrettable that the US allied with the USSR under Stalin since it was just as bad as the Nazis. If France hadn't of collapsed and Britain wasn't being threatened with invasion while Japan was trying to take all of Asia, we might have left the Nazis and the Commies to kill off each other.

But by your argument, French who did what they had to do to survive Hitler's occupation should be excused for co-operating with the Nazis too.

Integrity is important to me on both a personal and national level. I would rather die than compromise certain principles. I would rather see my country disappear completely than compromise the values so many died defending.

Finland has proven to be somewhat opportunistic. With the Nazis gone, they were more than happy to fly Russian planes.  Now with the Russians gone, who are they friends with?

The US has exploited plenty of situations as well, making friends and enemies with political expediency. But I can assure you that it doesn't make me very happy. At least we have one true ally in the form of the UK.

I have studied the air war in Finland to some level of detail, I can discuss the situation there far more intelligently than this thread would otherwise indicate. In any case, the point of my argument is not to insult Finnish politics or the difficult decisions they faced and made in order to resist Russian aggression. I simply went to the extreme to show how silly it is to be so sensitive to the markings on aircraft in a historical simulation.

"Oh my God, the German planes have swastikas on them!"

Walk into any good hobby shop in the US, you are sure to find German WWII models complete with swastikas. I don't see any customers in shock or protestors marching with bullhorns and signs. The people who originally fought the Germans never complained about accurate depictions in photos, models, or movies over a period of decades. It is the politically correct baby boomer generation that blew this all out of proportion. Should we go back through every other entertainment medium besides flight sims and edit out the swastikas? The fact that political correctness has reached even the otherwise unregulated internet disturbs me.
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Offline Staga

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2002, 08:18:25 PM »
"Finland has proven to be somewhat opportunistic. With the Nazis gone, they were more than happy to fly Russian planes. Now with the Russians gone, who are they friends with?"

Oh yeah those russian DH Vampires, Russian Folland Gnats, Russian SAAB Drakens, Russian Fouga Magisters etc...

edited 'cause I was little too rude :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2002, 08:33:06 PM by Staga »

Offline streakeagle

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2002, 09:09:32 PM »
Israelis flew anything they could get their hands on as well. Their friends are anyone who will fuel their military.

Flying a diversity of aircraft from anywhere they can get them is by definition "opportunistic"

But most countries didn't have access to Soviet equipment unless they co-operated in some way with Soviet interests... whereas the French were far more open with their sales: to anyone with the money except Israelis in 1968.

Am I wrong in saying Finland flew MiG-21s and MiG-29s in time frames when the West couldn't even get their hands on one?

Western enemies of the USSR could not even look at MiG-29s. Finland got an airshow... hmmmmm... not an enemy, must be a friend ;)

Be as colorful as you like in your responses, nothing said here can really hurt me. I think the whole point is to say what you think without worry.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2002, 09:13:55 PM by streakeagle »
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Offline illo

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2002, 09:21:43 PM »
Streakeagle, I have to say I agree with your general points. :)  

It's just my opinion,  But staga - no matter if we had vampires and so on -  Soviets had their influence over finland after ww2. Finnish media was very careful about talking "bad" about our eastern neigbors. For many years after war fear about possible soviet occupation lived on. Yes, we got soviet fighters and at least seemingly friendly political relations, but none in finnish army could have it unclear who was our threat number 1.(soviets, but it was something not spoken aloud offically) In this I see same kind of political balancing as during ww2.

...today there isn't any necessity to lean in any direction. I hope our politicans understand that too. :D
« Last Edit: February 28, 2002, 09:25:47 PM by illo »

Offline straffo

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2002, 01:39:26 AM »
ouch ! ...
Quote
Russian Fouga Magisters

Offline moose

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2002, 01:43:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wmaker
My ISP was acting up and the board was unreachable for me so couldn't come here to stop this BS. Though I suspect that nothing I'd said would have made any difference :(. There's actually nothing wrong with the discussion itself but...I *THINK* IT'S IN THE WRONG THREAD!! :mad: I came to general discussion to post "a FYI-post" regarding AH, a post that I could punt up from time to time for the new guys. Hmm...I guess I won't be doing that now... Right now this post has nothing to do with AH and is O'Club material...frankly, I hope someone at HTC deletes this.

Moose,

for trying to stop this nonsense.

I'm at fault here too tough. I was going to put a note in the end of my post to prevent this but didn't because I tried to be open-minded and not always assuming the worst...a bad misjudgement on my part, I know.

Now, I hope everyone stops this "nazi-nonsense". In time I'll post this again with a proper note.
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Offline streakeagle

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2002, 07:48:46 AM »
Wmaker, how can one say something like:
Quote
I hope everyone who reads this tries to explain/correct a person who is referring to G-2 as "nazi-plane" or similar in AH.


Then later on say:
Quote
I'm at fault here too tough. I was going to put a note in the end of my post to prevent this


So if someone makes a post about a controversial topic, but puts a note at the bottom saying that no one should respond other than in support of the post, then no one should challenge what was said? That is quite contrary to the function of a bbs and certainly contrary to the usual conversations here ;)

Maybe HTC should get a BBS server that has a button on it so that when someone makes a post, they can disable replies. If it was really advanced, it could detect and prevent attempts to start threads in response to threads that had this option. :D

In case you are confused, the G-2 was and still is a "nazi-plane" no matter whose markings they are painted in. The fact that a person could be upset at seeing the G-2's markings and then be calmed down by realizing that the swastika is blue and not black is ludicrous. He shouldn't have been upset to see a Nazi plane with Nazi markings. Does anyone else see the irony of this?

If changing the colors to blue makes it Finnish and therefore acceptable to someone otherwise highly offended by that symbol, HTC should put swastikas where they are supposed to be on all the German paint-schemes, but make them the Finnish version so it won't offend anybody.

If swastikas are so tabboo, they shouldn't even be on the Finnish Bf109. Most people outside of those who play the game or read this bulletin board don't know the difference and will view AH in a negative way for having it.

A US town named Swastika long before WWII ended up changing its name to be rid of the Nazi stigma. They got tired of explaining their history and arguing with people who always assumed they were pro-Nazi.

If I ever go psycho and do something so reprehensible that everyone will hate seeing any reminder of me, I am going to make sure I commit such an act wearing clothes everybody loves with commonly loved symbols just to punish those who respond to such.

"Oh my God, they are all wearing Levis, Nikes, and a t-shirt with 'Have a Nice Day' and a Christian cross on it... they must be devoted followers of that evil Streakeagle guy! I say ban all such clothes, yellow smileys, and symbols based on the cross and arrest anyone who wears them!"
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Offline straffo

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2002, 08:03:29 AM »
« Last Edit: March 01, 2002, 01:57:39 PM by straffo »

Offline illo

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2002, 08:08:53 AM »
not :)

Offline streakeagle

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2002, 08:13:03 AM »
I 2nd that with another "not" ;)

Besides that isn't even a full swastika and it is red, therefore it clearly has nothing to do with the Nazis :D

When someone realeases media the encourages others to put on SS uniforms and seriously plan to seize the government and wipe out everyone else, I still wouldn't be shocked. I would be concerned and expect the FBI to do their job.
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Offline Charge

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2002, 08:21:45 AM »
So, end of this BS? Please?
This matter is further discussed in the grand O.
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Offline Wmaker

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2002, 11:29:19 AM »


Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
This post clearly includes the argument that a blue swastika is ok because it is Finnish while a black one is not because it was used by Nazis. I think it is well within the topic to question this by asking "what difference does the color make?" and "should the swastika be synonomous with Nazis?".


The whole idea of my post was to tell the historical difference between the symbols used by the Finnish Air Force and the Nazi regime. I couldn't care less if the german planes in AH had the swastikas on them or not. But obviously it's good for HTC and german simmers to have them disabled so that HTC gets broader group of customers and german guys get to enjoy AH. The color or the symbol itself shouldn't be a point here at all but the history and the orgin of the symbol should. Finnish Air Force started using Von Rosen Cross way before Nazis started using swastikas. If Hitler/Nazis would have picked some other symbol there would be no arguing about this. Is it Finnish Air Force's fault that they happened to pick swastika?

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
The majority apparently feels that simply displaying the swastika on anything indicates direct support or sympathy for the Nazi cause.


This was the reason I posted my post, to try to shed some light into the issue. The fact that the plane in question happened to be made in germany is really irrelevant. I would have posted the same thing if AH had some other plane in Finnish Air Force markings (Brewster for example).

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
If a German ban on swastikas is what restricts the markings on AH aircraft (as HiTech has confirmed in the past), is the German law written so specifically as to permit blue ones?

Saying that blue ones turned 45 degrees are too different from proper black ones to be offensive is absurd. If I were a Nazi supporter and I knew black swastikas were banned (as in Germany), but blue ones are acceptable, then I would start wearing armbands with "Finnish" markings. I am sure Nazis wouldn't care about the color change. Likewise, most people have trouble telling a Finnish 109 from a German 109, or this wouldn't have even been posted at all.


Once more, it isn't the symbol itself but what it supports and what it's meant to symbolize. This is, again, the reason why posted this. To inform people where Von Rosen Cross comes from and what it does/doesn't symbolize.

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
I do have to say that I disagree with the posters last statement. Whether they were flown or marked as Swiss or Finnish, Bf109s were most certainly Nazi planes and the money those countries gave to Germany to purchase those planes helped promote the Nazi cause. Just as Germans who did not take action to stop Hitler were held accountable, people and countries that monetarily supported his efforts should be considered just as liable.


Finnish Air Force Messerschmitt Bf-109G fighter aircraft were flown by finnish pilots and carried finnish national markings.
They were planes of the Finnish Air Force, period. In 1943 Finland badly needed modern fighter aircraft and the only country we could get them from was Germany.

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
Just as Germans who did not take action to stop Hitler were held accountable, people and countries that monetarily supported his efforts should be considered just as liable.


I find it insulting what you are accusing finns of here. During that time our nation was fighting of its independence. Germany and Finland had a common enemy because of very different reasons, I might add. Well, you've already told us your principals. So according to you we should have just watched from the side as Red Army would have overrun our country? Please tell me what other choise Finland had but to fight with Germany if it wanted to stay independent?

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
So if someone makes a post about a controversial topic, but puts a note at the bottom saying that no one should respond other than in support of the post, then no one should challenge what was said? That is quite contrary to the function of a bbs and certainly contrary to the usual conversations here  

Maybe HTC should get a BBS server that has a button on it so that when someone makes a post, they can disable replies. If it was really advanced, it could detect and prevent attempts to start threads in response to threads that had this option.


Where did I specifically say what I was going to put in the end of my post? Where did I say that everyone should only post comments that support my post? Honestly, best thing would have been a post that only explains the history and the orgin of the Finnish Air Force insignia in which no one could reply to but everyone are free to draw their own conclusions. Then facts would be there that could be punted up somehow by the poster from time to time and if it raises discussion it could be done in a separate thread. The way Finnish Air Force adopted their first national insignia is A FACT there's no need to discuss if it's true or not. It's not an opinion either.

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
Flying a diversity of aircraft from anywhere they can get them is by definition "opportunistic"


After World War II it took almost 18 years before Finland bought military aircraft from Soviet Union (4 Mig-15UTIs arrived to Finland 10.11.1962). Before Mig-21F-13s our frontline fighters were Bf-109Gs (last flight: 13.3.1954), De Havilland Vampires (last flight: 17.7.1965) and Folland Gnats (last flight: 24.10.1972). It's a pretty cheap shot to call Finland opportunistic because our country didnt/doesn't have big military rescourses like USA. It's very true that just before WWII our Air Force tried to get fighter aircraft where ever possible. Again, tell me what choise did Finland have? What is wrong in gathering an air force to defend your country's independence? ...And btw FAF never had Mig-29s...

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
The fact that a person could be upset at seeing the G-2's markings and then be calmed down by realizing that the swastika is blue and not black is ludicrous. He shouldn't have been upset to see a Nazi plane with Nazi markings. Does anyone else see the irony of this?


Well I think it's pretty obvious. I never said he was "upset". You are making it up in your own mind. I said he didn't feel confortable flying an aircraft because he tought it had nazi markings on it. When I explained to him that they are markings of the FAF he liked to fly it.

Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
If changing the colors to blue makes it Finnish and therefore acceptable to someone otherwise highly offended by that symbol, HTC should put swastikas where they are supposed to be on all the German paint-schemes, but make them the Finnish version so it won't offend anybody.


Changing the colour doesn't make it finnish. The history behind the Von Rosen Cross does and the fact that it's displayed in an aircraft of the FAF. What you are saying here is total nonsense.


Quote
Originally posted by streakeagle
If swastikas are so tabboo, they shouldn't even be on the Finnish Bf109. Most people outside of those who play the game or read this bulletin board don't know the difference and will view AH in a negative way for having it.


This is part of the reason why I wanted to clarify this. To infrom about the true heritage of the Von Rosen Cross...you just don't get it do you?


Now this is my last reply to this thread. Now I'm REALLY counting on everyone to let this post die down and if there is any reason to discuss Nazi regime-issues or anything else nazi related, please...take it to the O' Club. Streakeagle (and others) I'm not saying this to get the "last word" on this...as I said if you have to talk about it do it in the O' Club, it's there for it. This was meant to be "an information bit" with maybe 5 replies. :(
« Last Edit: March 01, 2002, 02:26:32 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Wilbus

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2002, 11:36:22 AM »
You guys suck bad, learn some history for crying out loud.

Btw, I will let it die out, however, it's not the color that makes it, it's the rotation...

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Offline streakeagle

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2002, 02:09:59 PM »
Okay, substitute the word "uncomfortable" for "upset" in may statement. Does the meaning change?

The fact is, both the individual in question and the public in general don't notice the color or angle of the swastika. Your clarification of those differences only bypasses the real problem.

The problem is not the historical significance of the Finnish symbol versus the Nazi version. The problem is the logic of people who are "uncomfortable" with the swastika but not "uncomfortable" with the Bf109, since both are symbols of the Nazis regardless of anyone else who used either one.

The black swastika, at the correct angle, became the official symbol of the Nazi power.

But, likewise, the Bf109 and Ju87 were products of the Nazi war machine and quickly became symbols of Nazi power in their own right during the Blitzkriegs as much as the swastika and "SS".

A 109 in any colors is still a 109. The Nazis funded, developed, produced, and sold the 109s. If you can't understand that a 109 in any color scheme is still a "Nazi" plane, then you won't ever understand what I have been trying to say.

If people don't mind flying Nazi planes in the first place, why are they so "uncomfortable" with the swastika? Both are well known icons of Hitler's Germany, why is one considered so evil it should never be displayed while the other doesn't even merit a 2nd thought. To me it is a major contradiction in logic. I don't mind 109s or swastikas. If one really bothered me, the other would as well.

I don't see how you can argue Bf109s in Finnish service were not Nazi planes. Just because Finland owned and operated them does not change their origin. Switzerland did the same. After the war, Israel flew them as well with the big blue Star of David. I would still call any 109 ever made or flown a Nazi plane. Who designed it? Who built it? Who used it more than anyone else? If a church is in desperate need of financial aid, and gets a donation from a druglord, is it not still called drug money since that  is where it came from?

F-4 Phantoms were built in Japan, but I would still call them an American plane, Yankee plane, or any other term that is synonomous with the political machine that ultimately produced 5,000 of them. McDonnell Douglas and Mitsubishi were the factories, but the development, production, sales, and distribution were controlled by the U.S. government. The same held true with the 109.

With regard to Finland and the war, countries in desperate need of help always resort to anything it takes to get the help they need, but that doesn't make it right. In the world of law, the ends do not justify the means. A crime is still a crime even if it was committed with the best of intentions.

If I am a poor farmer in Colombia struggling to feed my family, I will do anything I can to provide for them. Perhaps the only choice I have is to support the local drug lords by harvesting crops for them (or whatever else it is that I can do for them and feed my family). But the drug lords are still criminals. Anyone who helps them becomes criminals.

Because somebody ends up in a position where they have no better choice does not make the course of action they take correct or legal.

My country operates based on self-interest and as such breaks the laws and is frequently immoral or supports those who are. I don't approve of it, but I don't deny it either.

In a war where it was the USSR, UK, US vs GE, IT, JP, Finland fought against the USSR and was supplied primarily by GE. Regardless of the Finland's motives, that is a fact.

Obviously, receiving supplies from Nazi Germany to defend against the USSR wasn't considered to be such a bad thing by the US and Britain, or the Allies as a whole would have treated Finland as an enemy and invaded/occupied it. But you will never convince me it was the "right" thing to do. Of course with Germany gone, it was in the interest of the West to prevent Russia from expanding any more than necessary. It makes perfect sense that the German planes would be replaced by aircraft from Western countries.

Did the US and UK really care about the fate of Finland? No, they only cared about how Finland affected the USSR. During WWII, they looked the other way. After the war, they preferred opposing Soviet expansion in any way shape or form.

Yet somewhere along the way, Finland ended up being more closely allied with the Soviet Union than NATO. Strange results indeed.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2002, 02:18:24 PM by streakeagle »
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Offline AKSWulfe

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The orgin of the blue swastikas in the AH's Bf-109G-2.
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2002, 02:26:14 PM »
THere were 109s manufactured by Italians in Italy during WWII... I believe they were called Buchon to denote their power plant.

Does that make them Nazi planes because they resemble 109s manufactured in Germany, or does it make them Italian planes?

BTW, only humans can be Nazis. Nothing can choose a political power if it doesn't have the ability to think (logically or not is irrelevant). It's a German plane built for the Nazi Wehrmacht, not a Nazi plane.
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