Author Topic: For the Kids (Read 2078 times)

midnight Target · « **Reply #30 on:** March 20, 2002, 03:32:02 PM »

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This "gay gene" crapola is of no consequence imo. If you are genetically "coded" to be gay, you will be gay from day 1. Yet, not all gays have the gene. It can also be something a person can "pick up" by being exposed to it long enough, especially if you are very young.

I believe the kid should have a neutral stance from which to choose his sexuality. And a gay couple in my opinion just cant do that.

Gay gene? I wasn't aware that one had been found.
As to gayness being something you can pick up....that IMHO is incredibly naive. Is your sexuality a belief system? Seems biological to me. And saying that a hetero couple would be better at providing a "neutral stance" just doesn't hold water. Gay parents are not about producing gay children. They tend to be stable, and much more open minded about sexuality in general.

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Uh...
1) sources?
2) "They DO tend to experiment more often"? wtf does that mean? Kids raised by gay people are more likely to try homosexual acts? If so, then the point is proven, that kids growing up with gays are "more gay" than other kids no?

Hortlund, I provided a link at the top of this thread. The sociological studies are available through that link.
And yes some of the studies indicated that children raised by gays were more likely to experiment with gay sex. But these same studies also show that the percentage of gay children from gay parenting is the same as the general population.

"more gay"? WTF does that mean? People identify with their sexuality all by themselves. What percent gay are you before you become gay? This is just silly. There is a percentage of the general hetero population that experiments with homo sex. Always has been. We are talking about a small increase in that percentage here.

As to your 1st point, I chose not to answer Mighty1 about the Mental Illness issue and concentrated on the mimicing because it was a valid question. The American Psyciatric Association has stated quite clearly that homosexuality is NOT an illness. People who think it is are uninformed or ......well uninformed.

Kratzer · « **Reply #31 on:** March 20, 2002, 03:44:36 PM »

This thread is 57.8% gay.

Sandman · « **Reply #32 on:** March 20, 2002, 04:40:45 PM »

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Originally posted by hblair
No, that's what you were doing.

Just makin' sure you knew it.

Tossing a gif in was easier than typing.

Tac · « **Reply #33 on:** March 20, 2002, 06:37:57 PM »

"Gay gene? I wasn't aware that one had been found. "

Last i heard they were looking for it. Thats why I said its still crapola. Even if it does exist.

"Is your sexuality a belief system"

Its as much a learned behaviour as a "biological" drive.

Elfenwolf · « **Reply #34 on:** March 20, 2002, 07:55:43 PM »

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Originally posted by Tac
"Gay gene? I wasn't aware that one had been found. "

Last i heard they were looking for it. Thats why I said its still crapola. Even if it does exist.

"Is your sexuality a belief system"

Its as much a learned behaviour as a "biological" drive.

Actually there ARE physiological differences between gay males and hetrosexual males which tends to support the argument that one can't help his sexual preferences. Researchers are trying to isolate this gene that controls sexual preference, and when they finally isolate and replicate it I hope they inject the gay gene into Tumor, Tac and hblair. I'll bet they'd change their tune then.

LOL Sheeesh, Tumor..."Uncle Elfenwolf?" Ya dick.

gavor · « **Reply #35 on:** March 20, 2002, 08:33:41 PM »

Tac,

From your argument a homosexual couple can't provide an environment for a child to start from a sexuality neutral position. Right? They'll see same sex affection, kissing etc.

Does this mean all children sould be removed from their parents at birth and raised in a special farm? Surely by your explanation the heterosexual couple will also pass a bias into the children? Or are you saying you'd prefer this bias and you'd hate to see children raised with the opinion homosexuality is ok and normal?

Tac · « **Reply #36 on:** March 20, 2002, 10:06:25 PM »

*SLAP* Elfen

"From your argument a homosexual couple can't provide an environment for a child to start from a sexuality neutral position. Right? They'll see same sex affection, kissing etc."

Thats the way I see it yes. Same sex parents would hardly be good role models of sexuality imo.

"Surely by your explanation the heterosexual couple will also pass a bias into the children?"

Of course. Just in the same way a homosexual couple will.

"Or are you saying you'd prefer this bias and you'd hate to see children raised with the opinion homosexuality is ok and normal?"

Thats a loaded sentence. I wouldnt "hate to see children raised with the opinion homosexuality is ok and normal" , in fact, I think they should be taught its "ok and normal" as long as both parties are consenting.

Look at it this way. In a hetero couple the child can witness BOTH sexes at "work" (behaviour, etc). In a homosexual one, they can only witness 1 gender. Since a child tends to see and imitate and learn from his/her parents, which one do you think offers the kid more options.. which one really gives the child a more neutral grounds in which to choose (WHEN child matures enough to actually be able to choose). ?

At what age do kids even begin to look into their sexuality? 10 yrs for girls and maybe 12 for boys? Maybe a year or 2 earlier..kids these days! . In any case, its nearly an entire decade in which a kid forms up his/her personality, most of it influenced by what they've experienced. And more than half of that experience is at home. And by experience I mean what they see/hear and ideas they absorb from others (mainly adults).

gavor · « **Reply #37 on:** March 20, 2002, 10:31:59 PM »

It also depends on what other experiences they have. I'm not sure what happens in the US but children in Australia tend to spend a lot of time outside their immediate family circle.

Parents both return to work while the child's still young because access to child care is readily available. Child care is also very adventageous for yound children. They mingle with lots of other children and adults and have the benefit of a lot of learning. Perhaps i'm a little biased because my gf works in the child care industry.

I went a little off topic, but just as an example that children don't spend 10 years of their life learning exclusively from their parents. I can see your arguement about not having a paternal influence or a maternal influence, but what effect is this really going to have. Surely same sex couples wouldn't be allowed to have children if they didn't have a support network to beck them up. ie their family members. The children then have grandparents, aunties and uncles. You're never going to have the same environment as a heterosexual upbringing, but I'm not sure it makes such a terrible difference. Thats just my opinion though and at this point we've come down to opinions. I think it would be ok(but open to being proven wrong by practical examples) and you dont think it's the right thing.

While we're on a similar topic, whats your view on lesbian couples having access to IVF treatment(invitro fertilisation)?

Tac · « **Reply #38 on:** March 20, 2002, 10:44:14 PM »

"While we're on a similar topic, whats your view on lesbian couples having access to IVF treatment(invitro fertilisation)?"

ooh boy. Never really thought about that. To be fair, i'd say no. Both sides of the fence should be held to the same standards (aka my opinion in a hypothetical situation), be it single sex male couples or single sex female couples.

But then again, they would hardly need IVF to get pregnant do they? Thats what local colleges are for

gavor · « **Reply #39 on:** March 20, 2002, 11:41:04 PM »

I agree with you, I'm totally against IVF for lesbian couples. That makes me sound a bit like a hypocrite, but my reasons are different. Basically i'm opposed to this because there are so many heterosexual couples who are unable to conceive naturally and have to wait in long cues to get access to IVF treatment.

Lesbians have chosen a lifestyle that excludes them from having children. They shouldn't have the opportunity to bump out heterosexual couples who are actually UNABLE to conceive through some physical problem. If lesbians want a child so bad they should swallow their pride and do it the old fashioned way. Or get a turkey baster.

This is a real topic down here, a lesbian couple really is(or was) lobbying to get access to IVF. I think they lost some appeal recently.

Elfenwolf · « **Reply #40 on:** March 21, 2002, 10:30:05 AM »

It's too bad we couldn't get a perspective on this issue from a gay person. Perhaps one of the Assassmans would care to comment?

Hortlund · « **Reply #41 on:** March 21, 2002, 10:50:53 AM »

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Originally posted by midnight Target
Hortlund, I provided a link at the top of this thread. The sociological studies are available through that link.
And yes some of the studies indicated that children raised by gays were more likely to experiment with gay sex. But these same studies also show that the percentage of gay children from gay parenting is the same as the general population.

Actually, this is all the evidence I need to be against homosexuals adopting kids. You only cross that line once. If you have tried it, you might be considered a bisexual at best, it is irrellevant whether you enjoyed the experience or not. Its like loosing your virginity, you cant say that it doesnt count just because it was bad sex and you were drunk etc.

So if I rephrase what you wrote above, this is what we get:
Children raised by gays are more likely to be bi or homosexual than children raised by heterosexuals.

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"more gay"? WTF does that mean? People identify with their sexuality all by themselves. What percent gay are you before you become gay? This is just silly. There is a percentage of the general hetero population that experiments with homo sex. Always has been. We are talking about a small increase in that percentage here.

[/b]
Uh..no there isnt. Because as soon as the "oh, but we are normal too, we just like to [insert whatever sexual act]" crowd starts experience with gay sex they leave the realm of heterosexuality and enter the land of bisexuality...some even drift on down the road to homosexuality.

It doesnt matter what you choose to call that sexuality, it is really very very simple
1) define sex (hehe, I always crack up thinking about a certain ex POTUS of yours when that subject comes up)
2) do a gender check on the person you are having sex with

Now, depending on that gender check, you are either a heterosexual, a bisexual or a homosexual. The difference between the last two is only the frequency of same sex encounters you want to put yourself through. It doesnt matter squat what you try to convince yourself that you are. Alot of people are in denial regarding their sexuality for a number of reasons, steps 1-2 will provide anyone with the hard facts of their sexuality whether they like it or not.

midnight Target · « **Reply #42 on:** March 21, 2002, 11:01:35 AM »

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Lesbians have chosen a lifestyle that excludes them from having children. They shouldn't have the opportunity to bump out heterosexual couples who are actually UNABLE to conceive through some physical problem. If lesbians want a child so bad they should swallow their pride and do it the old fashioned way. Or get a turkey baster.

Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay. Thats like saying "I choose to live my life hiding my true self from others, facing ridicule or physical harm if I don't, getting treated like I have a MENTAL ILLNESS, shunned by some, laughed at by others"......whoooeee Where do I sign up!!!

Tac,

There is no question that children would benefit more from the experience of having parents of both sexes to model behavior. Not just sexual behavior, but all gender specific stuff. That is not the question here. Not all children have the opportunity to have that type of home. Some langor in the foster care system for years because most couples are looking for healthy white babies.

The State of Florida is taking a child from a loving home because the 2 men who have raised this boy for the entire 11 years of his life are gay. Do you really think the boy will benefit from this?

The State of Florida has NO PROBLEM with a single father or single mother adopting a kid. As long as they are not gay. So the modeling argument is not an issue with the State. This is a clear case of a religious issue becoming a State law and it should be overturned.

Tac · « **Reply #43 on:** March 21, 2002, 11:22:29 AM »

"The State of Florida is taking a child from a loving home because the 2 men who have raised this boy for the entire 11 years of his life are gay. Do you really think the boy will benefit from this?"

11 years.. i'd say its too late lol.

"The State of Florida has NO PROBLEM with a single father or single mother adopting a kid"

A single person can adopt a kid???? man, thats just messed up imo.

midnight Target · « **Reply #44 on:** March 21, 2002, 11:34:21 AM »

Hortlund, you are wrong.

Please read this

especially this paragragh

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Sexual behavior does not necessarily equate to sexual orientation. Many adolescents—as well as many adults—may identify themselves as homosexual or bisexual without having had any sexual experience. Other young people have had sexual experiences with a person of the same gender, but do not consider themselves to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual. This is particularly relevant during adolescence because it is a time for experimentation—a hallmark of this developmental period.

That is from the American Psyciatric Association.

Now please try to look at the facts as presented and not to make an uninformed opinion, or to attack specific wording as lawyers are wont to do.