Need BF 109 K4

[Saurdaukar]

Wow this thread got off topic quick.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk

  Doesnt it have a redesigned wing (with the anti compression
 surfaces on the leading ege of the wing).

 Doesnt it have a stock 2x15mm, 1X30mm gun package.

  Doesnt it look really fricken cool??

  Maybe if we keep puonding away,. we'll get the k-4
Maybe they will give us a repainted G10 and tell you its a K4. You wont know the difference but you will feel better.

[Kweassa]

Personally, if  I had it my way it would be like this:

 * Perk everything post 1944 - P-51D, 190D-9, 109G-10 and etc..

 * the gap between the G-6/R6 and K-4 is huge, give us the G-14 instead of putting in an additional K-4 when the G-10 already exists.

 * Then, add a bit more speed, give marginally better rolling abilities and a new paint job to G-10 -> rename the "G-10" to "K-4"

 * the same sort of gap exists between 1942 Spit9s and 1944 Spit14s. Give us the 1943 Spit9.

 I'm sure this would make many people happy.

[eddiek]

Sure, AH needs a 109K4.........just not right now, or anytime real soon IMO.

Too many people talk parity in the planesets, but all they really want is that "edge" they think a particular plane will give them.
Aside from the highly perked Spit14, what fast climbing interceptor do the Allies have?  The LW already had the G10, now they have the 262 also....slower to alt, but untouchable when it gets there.
Let's talk some parity in that area before we add another hi alt LW ride.
P47M would be nice, as would several of the Spit variants.
Just my two cents worth........

[Shuckins]

An excellent source of information about the 109 is William Green's "Augsburg Eagle...The Story of the Messerschmitt 109."

Green's data on the 109 G-10 lists its weight in clean condition as 6,834 lbs.  Its maximum speed ranged from 342 mph at sea level to 426 mph at 24,280 feet, making it the fastest of the G-series aircraft.   A 20-mm MG 151 with 150 rounds or a 30-mm MK 108 with 60 rounds was optional as the engine-mounted weapon, and was supplemented by two 13-mm MG 131 machine guns in the cowling with 300 r.p.g.

Martin Caidin states that the G-10 under full power could reach 20,000 feet in six minutes from a standing start.

By way of comparison, Green states that the 109 K-4 in clean condition weighed 7,440 lbs.  Maximum speed ranged from 378 mph at sea level to 452 mph at 19,685 feet.  The engine mounted weapon could be either a 30-mm MK 108 or MK 103.  The MK 103 was a far superior weapon to the MK 108 but was considerably heavier.  Instead of the 13-mm cowling guns which were mounted on the G-10, the K-4 mounted two 15-mm Mauser MG 151 cannon with 220 r.p.g.  After takeoff, once its landing gear was retracted, the K-4 could reach at altitude of 39,370 feet in 10.2 minutes.

The above data illustrates that, while the G-10 was certainly a formidable aircraft, it couldn't quite compare with the K-4.


To the suggestion in an earlier post that the Spitfire XXI be added to Aces High I would offer the following observations.  First, the Spit XXI, with a redesigned wing and a much-strengthened internal structure, was, basically a different aircraft from the models which had preceded it.  Secondly, only 120 were constructed before production ended, and only four front-line squadrons were equipped with it.  This variant, therefore, had almost no impact on the outcome of the war.  Thirdly,  the performance of the Spit XXI was only marginally better than that of the Spit XIV.

Any aircraft added to the Aces High hanger should have at least been produced in enough numbers to have been a substantive factor in the fighting.  If the Spit XXI is added, then why not add the 109 K-14?  Powered by a DB 605 L engine, the K-14 could reach a maximum speed of 452 mph at an altitude of 37,730 ft!
Why should we care that only two of them made it into combat?!

Regards, Shuckins

[J_A_B]

"Ive only been dissapointed that ANY aircraft that outperforms the P51D has been perked."



Wow, I wasn't aware that the FW-190D-9, 109G-10, and LA7 were all perk rides now!  Oh yeah, the P-51B too.  

Your post is funny in that it shows your anti P-51 agenda quite blantantly.  The Spit 14 is perked not because of speed, but because it's fast AND climbs at 5K/min AND handles almost as good as a Spit 9 AND accelerates like it has RATOs.  It's quite simply the best plane in the game for the AH arena and if left unperked it would ruin the game (unless you like fighting against 75% Spit 14's).    The currently unperked planes--P-51, Dora, LA7, N1K2--don't do that so they're not perked.  It's that simple (although you seem unable or unwilling to comprehend that fact).

By the way, although you seem to not realize it, the P-51D is NOT the fastest unperked plane in AH and hasn't held that distinction since beta, if ever.   A LW plane--the 109G-10--holds that distinction.   Another LW plane--the FW-190D-9--is faster than the P-51D at most altitudes.  Of course, I wouldn't expect a rabid LW supporter to let facts stand in the way of his rants.

Sounds like you've just been smoked by P-51's once too often.   A shame.  That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

J_A_B

[Wilbus]

Hazed, TA152 modelling is wrong, it just reaches 460mph at 35k, which is about 10-12mph too slow at 6k too low alt.

[eddiek]

"Any aircraft added to the Aces High hanger should have at least been produced in enough numbers to have been a substantive factor in the fighting. If the Spit XXI is added, then why not add the 109 K-14? Powered by a DB 605 L engine, the K-14 could reach a maximum speed of 452 mph at an altitude of 37,730 ft!
Why should we care that only two of them made it into combat?! "

Now go look at the Ta152 that was introduced to AH.  Numbers produced of all variants were extremely low, yet we still had it rammed down our throats.    I agree with your viewpoints on some grounds, disagree on others.
The AH G10 is faster than your top speed posted due to Pyro modelling it with an optional engine.  Unfortunately, no one knows how many G10's were made with this engine, one, two, or five hundred, so we just have to take it as it is.  Are you saying the AH G10 should be toned down, it's FM reworked to reflect the commonly advertised speed of 426mph?  Do that and there are several pilots in the game who would be mightily offended, no matter how "correct" the move was.
The problem as I see it is that the LW was in such a state of disarray that no one can truly say "this plane came with XYZ engine, and anything else was an anomaly".  Such is the case with the 109 series.  I can't count how many engines 109 afficiandos have listed for the G series alone; each is "technically" correct, so which one do you choose?

[funkedup]

Spit 21 had 4 cannons and better performance and roll than the Spit XIV.  And it served in combat with 91 Sqn in the Spring of 1945.  It makes as much sense to add it to the planeset as planes like Ta 152 or Me 109K.  But I think maybe the AH double standard will continue.

Ta 152 used by one squadron in the final months of the war... In game, perked.

Spit 21 used by one squadron in the final months of the war... Not in game.

Spit 14 used by many squadrons in the last 16 months of the war...  In game, heavily perked.

La-7, N1K2-J, Bf 109G-10 and Fw 190D-9 used by many squadrons in the last 9 months of the war... In game, unperked.


Do you see a pattern?  I do.  I doubt it's some kind of evil HTC anti-RAF conspiracy, but the pattern is there nonetheless.

This has been a test of the Spitdweeb emergency whining system!

[-ammo-]

thank you

in the same light, the P-47M flew in small numbers with the 56th FG as a buzzbomb interceptor among other things.

The P-47N flew in great numbers in the Pacific in 1945.

Both of these AC would likely be perked.

[funkedup]

Yes good point, P-47M probably fits in the category with the Ta 152 and the Spit 21.

P-47N is in a whole other league, shooting down tons of planes over Japan.  More comparable to Dora or K-4.

[hazed-]

J_A_B reread my post will you.

I dont care for your statements at all.Im argueing for the RAF players and if you check my stats you will see i hardly ever fly them.Im perfectly happy with the Dora and the P51d is not a problem for me until i end up chasing one for 5 sectors only to grow tired of it.The aircraft isnt the problem here.
The fact that you fly it almost exclusively that has clouded your judgement.YOU are obviously the RABID fan if ever there was one.

you are misinterpreting what im saying totally.Ive made my points in the last post and im not about to repeat them to ppoint out the flaws in your accusations.

I havent asked for the 109K-4. I dont demand the P51D be perked unless all the late planes be perked.So where is this 'rabid lw crap' you speak of?

Im talking here of the disparity between one set of aircraft and another.The p51d is only receiving my attention because its free and at 20k its the fastest plane i meet not the most dangerous.

hers a rundown on what i consider the perk value should be on scale of 1 to 10 perks

P51D its an easy aircraft to fly if you ask me and also easy to hit with but less than spectacular in its killing ability( 2 or 3 perks).I find the dora pretty easy to kill with(after plenty of practice with those guns!) as it suits my style and if flown well its pretty untouchable also(2 or 3 perks).I find the p47D25/30 easy to kill with BNZ but less than easy to dogfight in(1 perk).The La7 i dont fly much but assume its easy from what i hear (i dont comment on it because of this).The 109g10 i dont find particularly easy to fly or hit with and im not disciplined with my ammo and soon run out of it(2 perk).the spit14 is easy to fly but ammo load isnt up to much same as most spits(ive flown it twice!)worth 60 perks? nope imo but should be among the higher costing on a scale of 1-10perks(7 perks).Nik is easy to fly, easy to kill with but is also not quite the demon it was.I no longer consider a flyer of the nikdweebs anyhow(1 perk).Ta152 isnt suited to MA and by that definition is no way worth 30 perks(5 perks).The tempest is great in performance but those guns although deadly really move the plane around and tend to make me waste ammo again.worth 60 perks? i dont think so(mid scale 1-10 perks say 5 or 6).me 262 just too good and easy to kill with if patiently flown (100 perks)
F4u-4 is just so fast but hasnt got cannons but plenty of ammo and easy to hit with(7-8 perks).F4uc.(5 perks) F4u-d (1 perk) F6f(1 perk)

see where im going J_A_B?

as to planes i think should be added

 P47M or N (4 perks)
 109K-4 (4 perks)
 P51H  (5 perks)

if planes start to flood the arena we penalise them with 2 or 3 more perks until we see them in the numbers we can all accept.

probably some late war ones ive missed but this is what id like to see in MA. we had me262s in CT for 25 perks! and it didnt flood that arena.We should try something different.If all those spit dweebs as people call them had the chance to fly these late war monsters they will learn to change their fighting styles to suit these aircraft.but as most of them fight until they die they wont last too long constantly upping in them.
Also the possibility of reseting perks to zero now and then wouldnt be such a terrible thing if costs were as low as this.say every 3 or 4 tours?

please drop this anti  LW crap J_A_B and turn your brain on.

the reason i single out the p51d? because it has enjoyed a lead in performance not so disimilar to the lead the spit14 has over 'it' for over a year if not 2? I fail to understand the reasoning behind the huge pricing of aircraft that are only out performing the p51d as much as the p51d has been outperforming others for all this time.You say they will flood the arena and i think they will too but at least during that period we all get a chance to learn them before the 'perk penalty' adds up and up until they just arent worth the risk to fly all the time.

clear now?

[J_A_B]

What I'm failing to grasp, both in your earlier post and the one above, is where you get the impression that the P-51D is so much better than the rest of the planes in AH.   The P-51D is decent, and it fits in well with the current un-perked planes; it doesn't dominate.  The Spt 9 is more dominant than the P-51D is.


The reason I accuse you of being a "rabid LW" guy is you make statements such as this:

"have to be limited to flying the P51d as the fastest plane non perked.sure it was the fastest in WW2 FOR A WHILE but not for well over the year it has been in AH!"

Anyway, you make statements (accusations) like that and don't even have your facts straight--the P-51 is not the fastest unperked plane in AH nor ever has been (except maybe in beta).  The Bf-109G-10 is faster at the 20K altitude you mentioned, and the FW-190D-9 probably is too.  I can't think of ANY altitude where the P-51D is the fastest unperked plane.  And, as you pointed out, I fly it pretty exclusively so I should know.

I've got nothing against your opinion of what the perk system should be--everyone is entitled to an opinion.   What got on my nerves was the "anti-P51" feeling I got from your post....so I made my reply.  


J_A_B

[SUP0NGO]

Hello friends:

All these discussions are podrian to avoid with a RPS (September
1939-Agosto 1945) in which "podrian" (translate pleae)  to have capacity all the airplanes,
boats or vehicles that had had a representation with certain  number
of units or that his " glamour " made attractive XD.

I create very necessary the RPS.

Greetings

Supongo

[MANDOBLE]

Pongo, 109K4 did use a pair of MG151/15 in combination with a single Mk108 or Mk103 (yep, Mk103 was used in this plane). Fuselage was refined and it had control tabs not present in previous versions that, supposedly, would improve the control of the plane at hi speeds. The fuselage refinements would imply, probably, a better acceleration. While speed advantage may be marginal compared with our G10, the rest of the points make this plane worth to be modeled.

J_A_B, in overal, P51D is noticeably faster than 190D9 (except at sea level and 17k) and much faster than La7 (look at the charts up to 30k). La7 is uber cause its acceleration, but this plane is really fast only up to 10k. G10 may be on pair in speed with P51D at most alts, but P51D control at medium and hi speeds is much better. In any case, IMO, top speed alone is not a factor to perk a plane, P51D or whatever.  Handling, E retention, acceleration and weapons package are more important factors.

A last point about the AH charts. These show a 100% fuel loaded P51 performance, and while most 190 / 109 pilots need to take off with 100% and even an external DT, P51D is normally flown with 50% and DTs or 75% without DTs.