What's happening in Jenin?

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
I'm not interested in a who started what thread at all...
We all know that Germany started wwii by invading Poland..we also all know that France declared war on Germany on sept 3rd 1939.

Ok   it's our fault just our fault.
Indirectly we commited the Shoa.
We are FULLY responsible of million of death.

Are you twisted or is it a bad for of humour ?

Over to your questions:

If you mean Hauptsturmfuhrer Kahn, the CO of 3./DF at the time, then no..I have no idea what happened to him.

He was last last seen in your country some people have searched him long without any success and are persuaded he was helped .

Regarding Oradur's importance for the partisans...
what is your opinion of the former Maquis chief for the Dordogne, Rene Jugie who in 1952 confirmed that Oradour-sur-Glane had indeed been full of weapons and ammunition. It had been the supply center for all the towns and villages in the Dordogne?

It was so full of weapon that the German were unable to find any.


Concerning the long and last part of you message , what were the Das Reich soldier expecting ?
Receiving flower ,wine and frech water from the civilian around ?

And  I've to agree no French citizen even showed any sign of execution after being invited to have a cup of tea with those nice Gestapo/SS guys  ...
no never ...
No partisans was ever showed to the population covered with toejam ... never ...
not even in Brive or Tulle ...
it never happened those soldier were so nice friendly and a word ADMIRABLE.

Frankly I don't care of those German soldier they got what they deserved PERIOD.
Especially the Das Reich soldier they were so fun , friendly and so on ...


In fact I've to admit they were doing tourism ...

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by straffo

Ok it's our fault just our fault.
Indirectly we commited the Shoa.
We are FULLY responsible of million of death.

Are you twisted or is it a bad for of humour ?

[/b]
Uh…I just said that everyone knows who holds the blame for wwii.

btw..what is "the Shoa"?

He was last last seen in your country some people have searched him long without any success and are persuaded he was helped .

[/b]
In Sweden you mean? I actually did not know that. Although I know that after the war, one of the Nazi escape routes passed through Sweden. I doubt he's still here though. He's most probably in Syria or Argentina. Anyway, I hope he either comes forward or is found…he's probably the only one still alive (if he is still alive) who knows what happened that day.
 

It was so full of weapon that the German were unable to find any.

[/b]
Or did they... I've read first hand accounts describing an explosion before the fire in the church.

Concerning the long and last part of you message , what were the Das Reich soldier expecting ?
Receiving flower ,wine and frech water from the civilian around ?

[/b]
Probably not…what were the french partisans expecting? Bratwurst and Beer, together with some soft polka-music?

And I've to agree no French citizen even showed any sign of execution after being invited to have a cup of tea with those nice Gestapo/SS guys ...
no never ...
No partisans was ever showed to the population covered with toejam ... never ...
not even in Brive or Tulle ...
it never happened those soldier were so nice friendly and a word ADMIRABLE.

[/b]
Uh…I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

Frankly I don't care of those German soldier they got what they deserved PERIOD.
Especially the Das Reich soldier they were so fun , friendly and so on ...

[/b]
Well, I guess we just see things differently then. In my opinion, no soldier, regardless of the color of his uniform, regardless of what he fights for, deserves to be tortured to death.

[-lynx-]

Jeepers - someone's ideas of comparing WW2 resistance to suicide bombers is just obscene:(. "They couldn't physically go to Germany to attack German civilians". Are you saying they would? You're sick minded people.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund

Uh…I just said that everyone knows who holds the blame for wwii.

btw..what is "the Shoa"?[/B]

Fek I'm lost ....
if you never heard of the shoa don't pretend you know history.

In Sweden you mean? I actually did not know that. Although I know that after the war, one of the Nazi escape routes passed through Sweden. I doubt he's still here though. He's most probably in Syria or Argentina. Anyway, I hope he either comes forward or is found…he's probably the only one still alive (if he is still alive) who knows what happened that day.

There was 6 survivor of this mass murderer. and they know what  happened this day there is even 13 Alsacian of Das Reich who fully know what happened.

Or did they... I've read first hand accounts describing an explosion before the fire in the church.

Lot of things can explode from grenade ,explosives , gaz to alcohol

Uh…I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

I'm saying that das reich bastard started by they own behaviour to show their barbaric mind.

Well, I guess we just see things differently then. In my opinion, no soldier, regardless of the color of his uniform, regardless of what he fights for, deserves to be tortured to death.

They got what they were doing BEFORE anything happened in  Oradour sur Glane.

[Hortlund]

Straffo, I'm not really sure how to understand most of your post.

"the Shoa" please tell me what that is. Perhaps it is called something else in English?

"There were 6 survivors from this mass murder"

Only one french civilian testified before the court in 1952. A mme Rouchfourde or something like that.

As for the 13 DF members...you are aware that they have versions of the sequence of events that differ from the official one right?

"Lot of things can explode from grenade ,explosives , gaz to alcohol"
Hmm..yes...so are you saying that there were alcohol in the bell tower?

Grenades explode yes, but they do not explode in a way that melts a bronze curch bell. Explosives can cause that, but 3./DF was a standard truck borne infantry company. Those did not have expolosives with them, explosives were only found with the pioneer units.  

I dont think I'll comment on your other "remarks"

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Straffo, I'm not really sure how to understand most of your post.

"the Shoa" please tell me what that is. Perhaps it is called something else in English?

the shoah == the holocaust is that clearer ?

"There were 6 survivors from this mass murder"

Only one french civilian testified before the court in 1952. A mme Rouchfourde or something like that.

5 man and madame  Rouffanche escaped at the start of the mass murder

As for the 13 DF members...you are aware that they have versions of the sequence of events that differ from the official one right?

They lied to save their bellybutton nothing more, as they recognised the fact later when "amnistied" (spelling ?)

"Lot of things can explode from grenade ,explosives , gaz to alcohol"
Hmm..yes...so are you saying that there were alcohol in the bell tower?

Grenades explode yes, but they do not explode in a way that melts a bronze curch bell. Explosives can cause that, but 3./DF was a standard truck borne infantry company. Those did not have expolosives with them, explosives were only found with the pioneer units.  

During the trial the German officier said that they put THEMSELVES the explosive in the church in fact it was not supposed to explode just release gaz to kill the people in the church.

I dont think I'll comment on your other "remarks"

You say that the partisan murdered 40 poor german soldier ... forgiving the 70 partisan "crunched' by German panzer the day before.


btw I've first hand information on this crime part of my familly is from this region and yes they were involved in those barbaric act against those lovely SS soldiers.

search about Saint-Sixte now.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by straffo

the shoah == the holocaust is that clearer ?

[/b]
Yup..perfectly clear. Just out of curiosity, why did you call it "the Shoa", and not "the Holocaust"?

They lied to save their bellybutton nothing more, as they recognised the fact later when "amnistied" (spelling ?)

[/b]
Never mind your spelling, Im more interested in your sources.

During the trial the German officier said that they put THEMSELVES the explosive in the church in fact it was not supposed to explode just release gaz to kill the people in the church.

[/b]
1. What German officer?
2. The German unit did not have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts.
3. That German officer appears to have slept during his physics classes... "the explosives were supposed to release gas"??

You say that the partisan murdered 40 poor german soldier ... forgiving the 70 partisan "crunched' by German panzer the day before.

[/b]
You have your numbers all screwed up. I said that partisans tortured and killed 126 German prisoners and  killed 9 German soldiers in combat. After Tulle was recaptured by the Germans, an SD unit moved in and shot 98 french civilians "as retaliation".

btw I've first hand information on this crime part of my familly is from this region and yes they were involved in those barbaric act against those lovely SS soldiers.

[/b]
I pity any man who takes pride in the murder and torture of prisoners. As I said..no matter what the color of their uniform.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Yup..perfectly clear. Just out of curiosity, why did you call it "the Shoa", and not "the Holocaust"?

Because as I'm part Jew and we call it like that in my familly.

Never mind your spelling, Im more interested in your sources.

Just learn french and have a trip to Oradour sur Glane all is availlable here. From trial resume and to audio / video testimony .

1. What German officer?
2. The German unit did not have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts.
3. That German officer appears to have slept during his physics classes... "the explosives were supposed to release gas"??

I was not clear ,it was supposed to release gaz but as you said they were sleeping during classes it exploded without killing people so they gunned all the people in the church.

You have your numbers all screwed up. I said that partisans tortured and killed 126 German prisoners and killed 9 German soldiers in combat. After Tulle was recaptured by the Germans, an SD unit moved in and shot 98 french civilians "as retaliation".

They were 99 and were hanged and the woman were "étripées"  (their belly were open) ALIVE

I pity any man who takes pride in the murder and torture of prisoners. As I said..no matter what the color of their uniform.

Prisoner this kind of scum ?
You're jocking ?
We are no speaking of Wechmacht soldier but of SS-Butcher .
Lockup wath the das Reich division has done in Belgrade  ...
When facing vermin I don't have philosofical debate : I shot back PERIOD.

[CH3]

Yer a racist POS Cabby; look at the Palestinian bodycount compared to the Israeli one - you think they were all terrorists that the IDF killed? But nah, you don't give a crap about dead muslims as long as your precious westernised Israeli's are still kicking bellybutton right?

[Hortlund]

Is Shoa the jewish word for the Holocaust?

Originally posted by straffo
Just learn french and have a trip to Oradour sur Glane all is availlable here. From trial resume and to audio / video testimony .

[/b]
Yeah...

I was not clear ,it was supposed to release gaz but as you said they were sleeping during classes it exploded without killing people so they gunned all the people in the church.

[/b]
1. What German officer?
2. The German unit did not have any explosives with them, other than Hand grenades and Panzerfausts.
3. Where do you get these rediculous ideas?

They were 99 and were hanged and the woman were "étripées" (their belly were open) ALIVE

[/b]
No...they were 98..all men. At first the Germans rounded up 120 men in the village, then they let a few go because of their age, 98 was shot. No women were killed by the Germans that day, none were etrepee:d alive. (I have no idea where you get your information from, but it is flawed. And it bears striking resemblance with 1940-50:s propaganda

Prisoner this kind of scum ?
You're jocking ?
We are no speaking of Wechmacht soldier but of SS-Butcher .
Lockup wath the das Reich division has done in Belgrade ...
When facing vermin I don't have philosofical debate : I shot back PERIOD.

[/b]
Yes, prisoners.
No, Im not joking.
Yes they were Waffen SS soldiers.
The Das Reich division did not exist when Belgrade was captured in 1941, back then it was called SS-REICH. And please do tell me what they did. I thought it was the Luftwaffe were the ones who bombed Belgrade to bits.
If you have an unarmed  prisoner infront of you, and you shoot him. How can you say that you shot "back"?

[CH3]

Oh and another thing Cabby, european antisemitism was a largely a product of right wing fundy christian types such as yourself; oh hang on you're of Spanish extraction as well aren't you? Guess chances are your forefathers were experts at forcible conversions and the Auto da fe, right?

[midnight Target]

Is Shoa the jewish word for the Holocaust?

Now why in hell would THAT be of any significance?

Tell me Hortlund......did the Germans commit ANY war crimes?

Look at the wording in your posts......"The DF were going to RELIEVE a garrison in" ......THEY WERE A FREAKING INVASION FORCE! Why would you stoop to apologize for this type of behavior? If someone invades your Country I hope you make sure you kill them in the nicest way possible.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target


Now why in hell would THAT be of any significance?

Tell me Hortlund......did the Germans commit ANY war crimes?

Look at the wording in your posts......"The DF were going to RELIEVE a garrison in" ......THEY WERE A FREAKING INVASION FORCE! Why would you stoop to apologize for this type of behavior? If someone invades your Country I hope you make sure you kill them in the nicest way possible.

Uh...

I am really sorry if I have offended you with my question about what Shoa meant. Trust me, I did not intend to offend anyone with it, and quite franky, I had no idea that the question could be offensive. He used a word I had never heard before, and I just asked him what it meant.

Why do you come down on me like this? Its like you have a gigantic spike up your gazoo.

----------------

Over to the other part of your post.

Yes, the Germans committed war crimes, lots of them in fact.

Can you please point out a quote of mine where I have "apologized" for any such crime?
 
And you are wrong. In 1944 DF was not an invasion force, that would have been correct in 1940. In 1944 it was an occupying force. And to sit and nit-pick at the phrasing in my posts is really rediculous. I have tried to describe what happened in the area between June 8-12 1944. To do this I have quoted parts of the war diary of div Das Reich. If that division was ordered to relieve a garrison, I fail to see why this should strike you as odd in any way.

Are you perhaps of the opinion that I should have added some PC flavour to the quotes? Ok, let me try it..

---------------
Scene at the command post of regiment Der Fuhrer on June 8th 1944.

CO enters from left -"Heil my vile comrades in horrible crimes"

Group of men -"Heil our most outrageously evil leader and truppenfuhrer"

CO points to map -"We are out of luck, my evil brethren. The brave french freedom fighters...curses to their names.."

Group of men -"Curses to their names"

CO -"they have liberated most of the beautiful mideval town of Tulle, and surrounded most of our nazi occupying murderous Gertapo force there."

Group of men -"Oh..woe is us. WOE IS US. While we know that we are the evil wrongdoers, and while we know that our cause is unjust and black, we still want to keep control over that beautiful  mideval town for just a little while longer. This so our horribly evil leather clad Gestapo leaders can spread their foul stench over the countryside"

Man nr 1 starts to cry -"What are we to do, what are we TO DO...woe is US".

all of the men starts to cry

CO -"Now now men. Calm down. We still might have a bratwurst or two up our sleeve"

Group of men looks up on CO -"How, when, why..is it possible? We cannot possibly fight agains the superheroic french brave ultra handsome freedom fighters who never does anything wrong"

CO scupcake -"yes, we still have our horribly evil panzers, that we use to enforce our incredibly evil ways upon the brave french peasants."

Group of men -"OUR PANZERS--they will save the day"

CO -"Yes, donner und blitzen, lets get our panzers rolling, and head to Tulle"

Group of men -"Yeayyy horayy for our panzers"

CO -"Lets get down to business men...and since we are all incredibly evil and horrible..lets make sure that we run over as many flowers as poissible on the way to Tulle"

Man nr 3 picks up a drum and starts to play

Man nr 1 starts to sing -"We are the evil wrongdoers, and we are black as coal"

Group of men {s we are black as coal"

Man nr 2 singing -"we hate everything that is good and just, because we are black as coal"

Group of men -"yes we are black as coal"

Man nr 1 singing -"Lets go to our dirty business, and let us destroy everything in our path, because we are black as coal"

Group of men -"yes we are black as coal"

CO clibs into his tank, singing as they pull away and head for Tulle. Suddenly he spots a flower on the side of the road. He quickly turns his little tank to run it over

[Dowding]

Occupying force or invasion force? Why nitpick. Both were fair targets. Frankly, hats off to the French partisans who had the balls to take up arms against the Germans in WW2. The Gestapo made very sure the price of capture/failure was exceedingly painful. I'm not sure I could have done it.

[midnight Target]

ROFL...I surrender...about choked on your "PC" interpretation, very funny.

and I apologize for misinterpreting your wording as if it were supportive of the Nazi's...your not...right?