Things shown on TV

[~Caligula~]

CNN chose to show some really bloody scenes of the latest "homicide bombing" in Jerusalem.
Their office was just a couple blocks away from the bus-stop where the explosion happened.
One of them was talking about how different is to see up close what it`s really like.Seing the not so badly injured walking away from it,covered with pieces of human flesh.

On the other hand they can`t show no evidence of a massacre in Jenin.They`re not let in.
Israelis say the arabs refuse to clear the corpses off the streets,because they know it brings bad publicity for the IDF.
I for myself think there were lots of arabs killed,mostly gunmen,and problably many civilians as well.But I do not belive the IDF went in and killed civilians on purpose.
I don`t care what the arabs say,they`re a bunch of liars.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by ~Caligula~
But I do not belive the IDF went in and killed civilians on purpose.

I'll paraphrase Toad on this one.  Do you think that matters to the dead civilians?

I don`t care what the arabs say,they`re a bunch of liars.

Yes this is true.  It's a scientific fact.  It is balanced by the fact that no Isreali has ever lied...ever.

[lord dolf vader]

caligula i know your not going to take this the way its ment but what the hell . the things you say are so bent twards the point of view that israel can do no wrong and all palistinians are evil. i think you are having the reverse effect.  

you are really commin off as a zelot. if that is your intention carry on.

[StSanta]

Heh, as if the Palestinians need to do *anything* to get the press on their side.

It is amusing in a way. We see armed gunmen taking cover in that church, firing at IDF troops. Then we see Israelis returning fire. Seconds later, the commentator says

"oh, oh, I can now see Israeli soldiers shooting innocent civilans that are seeking refuge inside a church. It looks to me like they're trying to kill these unprotected, helpless people".

I don't trust the press *either way*. The Israelis are full of toejame - what they're doing is BS. The Palestinians are just as full of BS. They're fighting IDF troops with automatic rifles and whatnot, and exploding bombs amongst women and children.

And yes, I am aware that I put all Israelis/Palestinians in under one category and tyhat this is wrong, but if you cannot see my point, then you're not worth the time it takes to make the sentence semantically totally correct. .

It's BS all of it in that region. I cannot find a better term for it, really. Sad and terrible, horrific UNNECESSARY BS.

[moose]

My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.

That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.

Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.

[~Caligula~]

My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.

That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.

Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.

smart thinking moose

[LtHans]

I agree.  I'm not some kind of blind man.  After skimming thru this site it came out as mostly full of information that is decidedly pro-Israeli.

I'm not at all against Israel.  If I were one, I would be hopping mad right now too.  But...I'm not Israeli.  I'm American.  My country comes first to me, and when it's secure, then and only then do I have time to be a philanthropist and police man.  I'm not even sure I should be those things to be honest.  But I do know that the Isreali/Palestinian conflict is probably the catalyst for the majority of the middle eastern hatred towards me and mine.

We either have to make the arab world our enemy, or dump the Isrealis.  Going halfway probably won't work.

[bmcleaver]

Originally posted by Thrawn


Yes this is true.  It's a scientific fact.  It is balanced by the fact that no Isreali has ever lied...ever.

Do you have a copy of Ambrose's "Band of Brothers" handy Thrawn?  I lent my copy to a friend, so I cannot quote the paragraph I am referring to, but near the end there is a section where the soldiers make comments about their impressions about various races they had come into contact with.  Their impression of the Arabs are quite revealing.  

To paraphrase.....all Arabs are cheats and liars and as a people they have no redeeming features.

Don't shoot the messenger.....if you want to flame anyone, flame Ambrose, or the soldiers he interviewed.

[Dowding]

To paraphrase.....all Arabs are cheats and liars and as a people they have no redeeming features.

If you had talked to a group of SS 'supermen' from back in the bad old days, and asked them their opinion of the Jewish race they would have said they were polluters of the Aryan race and were in league with the devil.

There has always been racism, bigotry and hatred. What's your point? Because your post wasn't particurlarly enlightening.

[majic]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.

That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.

Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We'd probably be blamed anyway...

[streakeagle]

Isolationism has never solved any of the USA's problems. It only allowed our enemies to get stronger so that we had to fight that much harder when war finally came.

As far as which side I would prefer the US to remain allied with: clearly the Israelis. When Israel has problems with an enemy, she attacks them directly in uniform. The Mossad is only used for exceptional cases and even they abide by very strict rules of engagement when they attack their targets.

The Arabs on the otherhand are indiscriminant. Since they lack the military prowess to fight and win on the battlefield, they attack anyone and everyone around them including themselves. When was the last time a fanatical Israeli flew an airliner into civillian buildings in a foreign country to protest actions taken in their own? The Arabs attack this way on a daily basis.

Does the Israeli military kill civillians? Of course they do. Any military forced to engage the enemy in urban/suburban surroundings will inevitably kill people other than their targets. If the Arabs had the courage to fight openly rather than with terrorist tactics, maybe they wouldn't have that problem... Oh wait, I forgot... they get their butts kicked every time they try that.

Why is it that some of the richest countries in the world (Arab oil producing countries) can't fight their own wars? They had to bring in Soviets (and in recent years Americans). Israelis received a lot of arms and money from the West, but Arabs have plenty of money to buy even more arms and certainly don't need any money or troops from the West. Yet the outnumbered Israelis have gone undefeated for 50 years. The Arabs have failed to understand their enemies and how to beat them. I feel no pity for them as Israel does no less than the US would if it were being suicide bombed on a daily basis. The Palestinians should be happy we never gave Israel a wing of B-52s and a stock of iron bombs to go with them, because that is what the whole Middle East is going to face if this conflict expands any wider.

[Mathman]

Originally posted by moose
My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.

That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.

Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.

While I think you are right, I happen to feel that the US will be blamed for whatever happens after we would pull out.  Why?  Because we didn't take a more active part in the process for stabalizing the area.

That being said, I think that we should pull out and let them figure it out for themselves.

Just my 2/5 of a nickel's worth.

-math

[10Bears]

On the other hand they can`t show no evidence of a massacre in Jenin.They`re not let in.
Israelis say the arabs refuse to clear the corpses off the streets,because they know it brings bad publicity for the IDF.
I for myself think there were lots of arabs killed,mostly gunmen,and problably many civilians as well.But I do not belive the IDF went in and killed civilians on purpose.

But without the 4th estate to confirm or denie whats going on you really don't know what to belive.

quote from Moose
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion is that the US should completely remove ties from the entire region.

That way we cant be blamed (like we usually do) for what happens.

Personally I think Israel instigates most of this.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



smart thinking moose

Good Caligula I'm glad your starting to come around. That really is smart thinking on the part of Moose. Why live in a welfare prison when you can be free to make your own decisions about income... Moving off welfare is a step up.
Oh Caligula, some reporters did manage to slip into Jenin.
Suzanne Goldenberg in Jenin
Friday April 12, 2002
The Guardian

An exodus was under way yesterday from the refugee camp that endured the bloodiest battle of Israel's military offensive, with Palestinians bearing horrifying accounts of a systematic campaign of destruction and abuse.

Hundreds of Palestinians fled the camp yesterday, an empty, smoking ruin resounding to bursts of Israeli machine gun fire. They left behind entire neighbourhoods flattened to make way for Israeli armour.

Some of the wrecking missions were launched while women and children were inside their homes. The operation began with rocketing from helicopter gunships and bulldozers moved in to finish the job.

They also told of the use of human shields for Israeli army patrols, and the random strafing of heavily populated civilian areas, killing elderly women and young boys and girls.

Those fleeing were dirty, exhausted and desperately hungry. Doctors in Jenin say 15 babies were sick after their mothers fed them powdered milk and sewage run-off from streets where bodies were left to rot for days.

A few also claimed to have witnessed a summary execution and the dumping of the dead - at least 150 Palestinians were killed in the camp by the Israeli army count - into mass graves.

The stories of executions and disposal of the dead could not be verified as the Israeli army has encircled the camp with tanks, and shot at, or arrested, journalists approaching the area. The Guardian was among a handful of newspapers whose reporters managed to enter the town yesterday.

But the accounts of the massive destruction of civilian homes, and of the firing on civilians, could be confirmed as they also occurred in the town of Jenin, suggesting a widespread and systematic pattern of human rights abuses that is only now beginning to emerge.

Ali Mustafa Abu Siria, 43, an Arabic teacher, was carried to hospital on a ladder - nursing a gunshot wound to the left knee that had gone untreated for four days. Doctors said it was badly infected.

He was injured while serving as a human shield for an Israeli army patrol, who led him out of his home handcuffed and at gunpoint on Friday. He was forced to walk ahead of the troops - and the army sniffer dogs - as they underwent the perilous business of house-to-house searches, hunting down Palestinian militants and weapons caches.

Mr Abu Siria was shot at the 12th house. "As soon as I knocked on the door, a bullet was fired at me, he said. He believes he was shot by a second Israeli army patrol, which was on the first floor of a neighbouring house.
"The two groups of soldiers started screaming at each other," he said. "Then they left me. I started dragging myself on the ground until I reached the house of a neighbour. The army did not do anything for me."

A similar picture of a widespread disregard for civilian casualties by the Israeli army is also emerging in Jenin city. Doctors at al-Razi hospital said a man bled to death on its doorstep after soldiers prevented medics from retrieving his body.

A burst of machine-gun fire from a helicopter gunship in a residential neighbourhood of Jenin on Wednesday killed a young man, who was outside charging up his mobile phone on a car battery, and injured Rina Zaid, 15, in the chest.

All but one ambulance driver from Jenin's general hospital has been arrested by the Israeli army, so her family ripped a door off its hinges and carried her to hospital on foot.

At dusk last night, the refugee camp was hit by 10 explosions in the space of an hour - a parting act of destruction as the Israeli army "mops up" what it calls an infrastructure of terror operating from inside.

A new wave of refugees streamed out of the camp - including many children - scavenging for food. A few hours earlier, Riyad Ghalib Damaj, 28, a produce seller, also smuggled himself out with a group of women and children fleeing the camp, taking advantage of a brief lifting of the curfew in Jenin.

"There are no houses left in the refugee camp; there is only a highway. There are countless numbers of houses destroyed. If you saw them you would go crazy," he said.

"So many rockets were fired on our house from helicopters because three soldiers were killed nearby, and there are only two families left inthe neighbourhood."

Lovely people you support there Cal

[Voss]

Originally posted by Dowding


If you had talked to a group of SS 'supermen' ...

You know, the one thing about this conflict, that recurs more than anything else, is parables from the past. I submit that the fuggin' Nazi's don't matter at all in this situation. Neither, do Native Americans, nor the slave trade, nor what happened in Israel, nor anywhere else in 1948, nor any other time.

If, if, if,... It's pointless.

What is obvious? It's obvious that Arafat makes a very poor leader. Perhaps, he's the best choice for Palestine, only Palestinians can say. It sure looks to me like Arafat realizes that peace will only obviate his greatest weakness (inability to lead). I do not believe he is capable of establishing any form of government. Trying might even get him killed by his own. It sure looks like he has two choices. Either, Arafat fights Israel, or Arafat fights Arabs.

I've talked to a man that lived in Palestine for a time. He reported that Palestinians do not rebuild damage that has been done by Israeli's. Why? Who knows? You could surmise that 'they' (whoever they are) want the damage to remain as evidence of Israeli cruelty. But, from the outside, it's difficult to say precisely what either side is thinking (if they are thinking at all).

Cal, what are the chances of Sharon being replaced? What kind of timeline are we talking about, concerning such a replacement? Are the majority of Israeli's behind him, or is there a growing concern about his intentions? Is there a feeling amongst Israeli's that he is doing a good job, or is there a feeling that he is abusing his military power?

We know that the attacks are terrible and brutal. How is your country, as a people, responding to these events?

What, in your opinon, is it going to take to end the violence?

[Voss]

10Bears, it wasn't a Palestinian that shot that man? Snipers are shooting anyone that looks like they're helping Israeli's. Many of the buildings destroyed were booby-trapped, many of the explosives were set by poorly trained individuals that have killed themselves setting the trap. Yeah, I'm sure Israeli's are violating human rights, too.

Reporters are resorting to hearsay when they can't get into areas. This is an extremely ineffective way to discern truth. It's not surprising, though, as that's how it is done these days. It's a poor way to do their job, though.

Taking a stab at Cal might make you feel good, but you're slant makes you look worse then the media. At least we have Cal's account to compare the media's slant with.

I suggest we take both with a grain of salt, but refrain from insults.