Author Topic: Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?  (Read 921 times)

Offline lazs2

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2002, 08:15:31 AM »
kieran and toad....  the CT is force... it is a 180 degree change in gameplay in the MA ... it severly limits choice  and  solves nothing so far as getting all the planes in the game 24/7.  

An area arena would not force anyone to do anything and would not punish anyone for any behavior or plane choice.   it would be more not less.   All planes all the time.... It is simply more choice not less.  Unless.....

unless the only way that you can have fun is by being able to kill lesser planes with far superior ones.   The "area" arena will limit you chances to do so.   Not impossible but limited (early and mid war martyrs could still take off in uberland).   Even so.... some lame pitiful soul will try to add a perk system to the "area" concept I would bet.

I am for simply ADDING an early war area to the current arena as a test.   How is that "forcing" anything on anyone?   How is that hurting anyone at all?   I can only see it as offering MORE choice without impacting anyone else.   It is the only way that I can see to get early war planes in the arena in a viable manner.

Toad and kieran..  a two part question..   Do you feel that we should have a way to get early war planes in the arena?   And... Do you have any idea's of your own for doing so?
lazs

Offline hblair

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2002, 10:34:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
kieran and toad....  the CT is force... it is a 180 degree change in gameplay in the MA ... it severly limits choice  and  solves nothing so far as getting all the planes in the game 24/7.  

An area arena would not force anyone to do anything and would not punish anyone for any behavior or plane choice.   it would be more not less.   All planes all the time.... It is simply more choice not less.  Unless.....

unless the only way that you can have fun is by being able to kill lesser planes with far superior ones.   The "area" arena will limit you chances to do so.   Not impossible but limited (early and mid war martyrs could still take off in uberland).   Even so.... some lame pitiful soul will try to add a perk system to the "area" concept I would bet.

I am for simply ADDING an early war area to the current arena as a test.   How is that "forcing" anything on anyone?   How is that hurting anyone at all?   I can only see it as offering MORE choice without impacting anyone else.   It is the only way that I can see to get early war planes in the arena in a viable manner.

Toad and kieran..  a two part question..   Do you feel that we should have a way to get early war planes in the arena?   And... Do you have any idea's of your own for doing so?
lazs


Dude. I'm all about this. Give me area or give me death.

HiTech...

We can have area arena = 1

We cannot have area arena = 0

Thanks!

Offline Octavius

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2002, 10:49:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
OTOH, Octavius, why not try CT settings in the MA? What could it hurt? I'm sure most players won't quit over an experiment... ;)

Just in case you don't know, I don't really mean that. The MA is the breadwinner, and proposals to change it should be considered veeeerrry carefully before implemented.

Coca Cola changed a winning formula because it felt like it could do better than the majority market share it owned. Overnight the "new formula Coke" transformed the company into second place beverage producer. Guess how fast "classic Coke" came back to stores? ;)


Hehe, I know what you mean.  I dont think I explained myself correctly :).  The MA operations, furballs, missions, whatever goes on in the MA can continue uninterrupted... and even with a larger area than it has now (with the new sized maps)... the smaller area (the experiment) would subtract from the total area of the large new MA and still leave the new MA area with more than we have now.  everybody wins :).  Maybe lazs could include a mock-map to illustrate this idea?
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Offline Apar

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2002, 10:54:25 AM »
Happy to give it a try, :)

Offline Octavius

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« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2002, 11:00:08 AM »
This is along the lines of what I'm thinking...


Here we have the original MA.. everyone is happy.  Its small and dinky, and somewhat overcrowded...
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Offline Octavius

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2002, 11:01:10 AM »
And here we have the "new" MA for testing.  Note the overall larger area of the MA Area along WITH the Test Area (i named it the Lazs Area for lack of better name)

(This is very poorly done, I had to race to finish it within 2 minutes :D)
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Offline Kieran

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2002, 11:08:26 AM »
...now place a "cricketschirping.wav" file into the background of the "Lazs's Area" and you would have it right. ;)



Heck, I'd give anything a try. If someone makes the map and take the time to set it up I would give it a fair shot.

Offline AKDejaVu

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2002, 11:22:58 AM »
An arena inside of an arena is still a seperate arena.  It should be set up as a seperate arena.

Refer to any "field general" post on this bbs and mulitply that sentiment by 2.  Its bad enough with one war going on.. and now you want two.

The whole premise of this seems to be a way to either "entice" people into early war rides or cloud the fact that not many want to fly them (in any environment) by hiding the numbers with MA headcount.

People go where they think the fun is.  They go to the MA because the numbers say that is more fun.  Once they get there... they go where the largest number of contacts are.  Do you somehow think that philosophy will change?

Now.. we can get tons of "me too" and "let's give it a try" and whatever other responses here... just like we got for the CT.  The MA will show itself to be the "going for the large crowd" audience that it really is.

So then... what do we have HTC put on the back burner while they develope a whole new strat system for a planeset with a whole new set of reduced capabilities (how many early war rides carry ord?) in a whole new arena.

Its not a "let's do it tomorrow" idea.  It merrits being weighed against slowing other development down.

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Offline Toad

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2002, 12:07:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
..it severly limits choice  and  solves nothing so far as getting all the planes in the game 24/7.


Laz YOUR idea doesn't severely limit choice, I agree; it merely RESTRICTS choice.

You would restrict some rides to particular areas of an arena. A restriction is a limit, like it or not; a mere matter of degree or semantics. Yet you seem to ignore this aspect of your idea.  Check my sig... I'm not much in favor of restricting anything. :)

Secondly, your idea does NOT "get all the planes in the game 24/7." any more than they are RIGHT NOW.

What it does is provide isolated places to fly "early war", "mid war" and "late war" aircraft with little or no overlap of eras. I'd think the same folks who like/fly EW would still fly them, The same folks that now like/fly MW would still fly them and the same folks that now like/fly  LateWar (can't say LW here :) ) would still fly them. In short I don't see that this will suddenly change a player's preference. Most of us know what we like.. and fly it in the MA. I'm a 51B and 51D type. I like 'em. I'd still fly 'em.

So, in my view, your proposal merely segments the present population into specific areas. I don't see where it will suddenly get people to switch rides. All planes into the game? They're in there NOW.. and some get used more than others. What would change? They'd be in separate segments and some would STILL get used more than others.

Quote
Laz:  Toad and kieran..  a two part question..   Do you feel that we should have a way to get early war planes in the arena?   And... Do you have any idea's of your own for doing so?
lazs


Part 1. Early war planes ARE in the MA. :) They don't get used much is all. All you're proposing is to segment them into areas that allow them to operate solely against other EW planes (An as yet undertermined group of planes classified as "EW" aircraft, BTW.) You hope to increase their overall usage through this segmentation/classification. It might.. but it might not.

So, basically, no, I don't see the problem as you do. I CAN fly a Spit I any time I like right now. Would I be more likely to fly it in a segmented arena? No.  Although I think it is the best looking fighter ever built, I still would prefer either a B or D Mustang. I have been know to take a Hurri or Zeke up now and again though. :)

Synopsis: No, I don't worry about getting EW planes into the MA. They're there already.

Part 2.  Nope. This is simply because I don't see the problem as you do and I don't feel your pain.

However, as I've said many times already. There MAY be some merit to your idea. It might be fun and I'd give it a try. I tried the CT too, a few times.

Nonetheless, I see no reason to give your idea any different or preferential treatment. It should be tested in the same way and same manner as the CT.

If those in this thread who are eager for you idea approach HTC in the same manner that the CT guys approached them, I'm sure you could get the Dueling Arena to use for "proof of concept." (ie: "HTC we'll do the work") If it proved wildly popular, with more folks in it than the MA, it would de facto become the MA, would it not?

Please don't tell me that your idea won't work unless the present MA is discontinued and your version substituted. When a few of the CT guys suggested that same line of thinking, you along with myself an others vociferously disagreed. Don't tell me you're trying to have it both ways?

Your idea deserves the same chance given the CT. No more, no less.

Amen.  ;)
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Offline Octavius

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2002, 02:55:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
The whole premise of this seems to be a way to either "entice" people into early war rides or cloud the fact that not many want to fly them (in any environment) by hiding the numbers with MA headcount.

People go where they think the fun is.  They go to the MA because the numbers say that is more fun.  Once they get there... they go where the largest number of contacts are.  Do you somehow think that philosophy will change?


I'm seeing the whole premise as merely an addition to the MA already.  The worst negative effect this could cause would be a slight numbers shift to the new 'area'.   The Main Arena as it is right now would not change.  Seriously, how would this hurt your ability to enjoy yourself in the Main Arena, DjV?  Nobody is compromising anything, nobody is losing anything.  This idea only offers another way for customers of this community to enjoy themselves.  You want to have some fun in the normal MA?  By all means have at it!  That will never change.  Want to have some fun in a decent, fair, early bird fight without having to exit the MA, enter another arena, organize everything, then finally roll?  As an added bonus, think of this as a time saver.  

Its just an added feature, another option to the paying customer.  Just like lazs said...

Quote
I am for simply ADDING an early war area to the current arena as a test. How is that "forcing" anything on anyone? How is that hurting anyone at all? I can only see it as offering MORE choice without impacting anyone else. It is the only way that I can see to get early war planes in the arena in a viable manner.


Toad:
Quote
Laz YOUR idea doesn't severely limit choice, I agree; it merely RESTRICTS choice.  

You would restrict some rides to particular areas of an arena. A restriction is a limit, like it or not; a mere matter of degree or semantics. Yet you seem to ignore this aspect of your idea. Check my sig... I'm not much in favor of restricting anything.  


I certainly would agree with you, if that was the true idea of the area arena... but it isnt the point :)  Its just an added option, an added feature, another place to go, fly, kill stuff, blow stuff up, chat, vulch, or what have you... in earlier war planes... and evenly matched... in one arena.
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Offline lazs2

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2002, 02:59:52 PM »
toad... my idea.. someone elses.  it doesn't matter but something will be done.   The current MA has outgrown itself.  Not in numbers but in it's ability to offer fair fights.... parity.

I agree that the MAis the bread winner and that it needs to stay attractive to everyone.   "area" arena doesn't limit anyones choices it simply adds choices.   If no one used the early war portion it would not matter.

The perk system limity your choices and is a stopgap.   We have outgrown even that stopgap.   We have come to the point where we have to realize that if we want to see early war planes in the MA then there has to be a invornment of some sort of parity for them.   I realize that you have no interest in them and that being a 51 pilot you are afraid that no one will play with you given the choice.    You fear choice in that it would KEEP PEOPLE FROM BEING FORCED TO PLAY WITH YOU.   Not that it would force anyone to do anything.   It is you who is the advocate of forcing people to do something not I.    If you want to fly a Spit one then you will have more fun in the area arena than you would in the current MA.... I'm not even sure that a spit one is capable of shooting down a P47 or Hog even if it emtied it's entire ammo load into them..  

To answer both toad and deja... yep, people go where the action is.   They go with the planes they feel the most comfortable in and they get bored and switch too.   In the area arena they could do all those things.   It really isn't seperate arenas in that you are still part of the community and part of the MA...  Just as much as one group is part of the MA even tho it is fighting half a map away from another group.   The ability to instantly up from any field on the map remains exactly the same as it is now.

deja.. I have admited that there is much less support for early war planes... that is why it whould be a small area.   Oct has it about right.... I maintain tho that some would use it all the time... others would go there when they wanted a furball turn and burn fix and..... if it stayed empty.... so what?  

 I admit that I don't know how much work would be involved but without doing something  all thois "work" on early war plane development is pretty much wasted so far as people who only like the MA are concerned.

What is telling tho is the lack of other ideas.... I really like the "area" concept but... I figured that a lot of guys had come to the same conclussion I had about something needing to be done and with all the bright lads out there I was hoping that someone could come up with a better idea than poor ol slow witted lazs.  

so far tho... I haven't even seen any good arguements as to why the "area" arena wouldn't work except for some half hearted attempts to keep from saying "but I want to beat up early planes with my late war planes and your arena won't let me... it takes away my choice to have a far superior plane."   Or... "new ideas sound good but they never work".  or "the time spent doing it could better be spent developing planes like the stuka that no one will ever use past the first week."

If the "area" arena doesn't work in it's first phase (early war area) then all that happens is not many use it.   Nothing changes.   No impact.    How many arena ideas can say that?  How much more risk free can you get?
lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2002, 03:05:53 PM »
Why don't Laz and yourself round up a few like-minded individuals and create your dream? I'm sure you can get HTC to loan you the DA for a while... if you are serious and willing to work.

As I said, if you build it.. and it's good.. they will come. It will become the de facto MA.

However, I don't think it is the responsibility of HTC to stop what they are doing and test the hypothesis. It would be the responsibility of the proponents of change.

HTC is working on THEIR business plan and things are going pretty well. That much should be obvious to anyone that's been around here very long. We're on the verge of another update to 1,.09 that will bring us more aircraft and larger terrains as a minimum.

Do I want HTC to stop what they are doing and draw up new maps, strat and whatever to test the "Laz hypothesis"?

Absolutely not. HTC is doing good work.. let them continue.

If the "Laz hypothesis" needs testing, it's the proponents that need to do the test. Who better to know exactly how to achieve this coming "golden age" than the very folks that proselytize for it? If HTC does it and it fails, the failure will be blamed on their poor execution of the "perfect idea."

Nope. Take the ball and run with it. If the concept is so dear to you who want it, you folks will do the best job of implementing it.

Good luck to you guys! I look forward to giving it a try...... in the old DA.  ;)
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Offline Toad

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2002, 03:27:48 PM »
Yeah, Laz.. that's it. I'm afraid people won't engage my mighty P-51 B or D if you get your way. What's worse, I'll have no one to boom and zoom at Mach .95. :rolleyes:

Check my kill list for this tour.. I've  got about 27 in the B and about 43 in the D. I've really just started in the B due to the TOD, but I like it. Viz sux a bit, little short on firepower and IMO it's a bit worse in a turnfight than the D but I sort of like it.

Top 3 kills? #1 P-51D's. :D  #2 P-38L  #3 La-7 :D :D :D

Those 3 comprise about 35% of all my kills.  This tour I've gotten kills while in a B-26, an F4U-1D, an F6F-5, a P-47D-30, the P51B/D and a TBM-3 I think I spread it around a bit. Certainly my overall list couldn't be considered purely an "uber" plane list. Heck, I have no sorties at all in the La-7! :D

Looks to me like about 5-7% of my total kills are of things that might be considered "early war", though. The rest are things that are "competitive" in the MA depending on if the other pilot chooses to fly them to their strengths. (IE, if some guy wants to do a running disengagement in a Spit V.. well, that's no one's fault but his own.)

Ask around.. see where people find me and my mighty B and D models. It isn't at 20k.. check down where the salt spray dries on the windscreen. Ask if they see me right in the middle of the furballs. :D

What I'm seeing from you is an unwillingness to take on the responsibility of putting your idea to a test. In short, you've made a suggestion that may or may not be good.

But you aren't willing to invest the sweat to find out.

At least with Hblair, Sabre, and the rest of the CT crowd willingly accepted the challenge to implement their own "perfect" ideas.

You willing to do the same?
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Offline Creamo

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2002, 03:58:12 PM »
The reason you kill so many La-7’s and very little early war stuff is because no one fly’s early war planes much. You can’t kill what you can’t find. Would you take a Spit I over Germany in 1944? Me either, and the MA is about 1000% more hostile.

If this thread has done nothing, it made me consider why I fly Dora’s and N1K2’s. It’s not to rack up kills at all, it’s just that I hate getting shot down. Well, in a fair fight I don’t think care either way, playing victim to planes that way outclasse you is no fun at all, and I don’t log in to get frustrated, so I fly equal planes just like 95% of the MA to stay alive mostly.

Of all the things in Laz’s idea is, it seems simple in concept and give me a place to fly the other half of the planeset. Not sure where all this sweat would be required.

 Plus, I’d like to see Laz “accept the challenge to implement their own “perfect" ideas”. Not only might it work and SLIGHTLY change a MA that is getting a bit stale, but it would be humorous to have people criticize him and get legitimate answers or told to piss up a rope rather than have a big emotional project step down grief stricken retirement thread.

I’m for it, but not in the DA. Why doom it to failure by having a separate arena? Has anyone learned nothing from the CT?

Offline Octavius

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Time for the "area" arena so we can use all these neato early war rides?
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2002, 04:20:02 PM »
Toad, as members of the AH community, are we not allowed to offer suggestions? =]  User suggestions/contributions are what make Aces High great, why not continue it?

Quote
I’m for it, but not in the DA. Why doom it to failure by having a separate arena? Has anyone learned nothing from the CT?


Exactly Creamo :)
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