Author Topic: Collisions, wtf? (Read 989 times)

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #45 on:** May 19, 2002, 10:11:19 AM »

Skurj of course not in that exact setup like you described.

Nevertheless you and I both know that in a furball and when there's lag present it is common that when the enemy shoots, your FE shows him pointing totally away. His FE sees him as shooting you, not pointing away.

It's exactly the same thing as with collisions where only one party sees the hit.

sling322 · « **Reply #46 on:** May 19, 2002, 12:35:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wotan
unless you have a film i doudt many if any believe you

I dont have film, but I know it can be done. I have done it in a C47 before to protect my troops. And I have seen a member of my squad do it before to finish off a sortie when he was out of ammo.

Maverick · « **Reply #47 on:** May 19, 2002, 02:15:41 PM »

One factor that is ignmored here in the case of collisions is this. In the RL world a collision damaged BOTH planes, no matter if either pilot sees it or not. In the case of AH the player with the fastest connection loses the collision even if the player is NOT in a position to "see" the impact, as in a rear end collision. It has happened to me several times. I got rammed from behind and never knew the bandit was there. No pings, no tracers just instant tower reset.

In this game the target is damaged if the firing FE "see's it whether or not the target FE say's it "should be so" or not. Why should collisions be different?

To avoid "wholesale" abuse of collisions simply set it so that BOTH planes die and NO points are awarded either way. Now that there are 4 buffs in formation the idea that a single "suicide" fighter will dewstroy the mission is gone. Heck if the buffs are high, they can out maneuver the fighter anyhow.

That's my opinion and position, now flame away.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #48 on:** May 19, 2002, 02:28:22 PM »

I agree with you Maverick. Besides ramming was used in real life too, as a last resort if guns were jammed and the pilot was desperate.

At the last stages of war the luftwaffe organised a 800 fighter ramming attack against the allied bombers. They used stripped 109's and volunteer pilots. In the end they got only about 200 fighters up, lost most of them and managed to drop maybe 20 bombers because the pilots were unexperienced and failed to hit the right spots of the bombers.

Anyway in AH if you try to ram a bomber it results in your death but the bomber flies away. It's just one thing that has gone to the altar of gameplay.

Of course the ramming could become a problem in AH where you have unlimited lives..

eskimo2 · « **Reply #49 on:** May 19, 2002, 03:34:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Maverick
One factor that is ignmored here in the case of collisions is this. In the RL world a collision damaged BOTH planes, no matter if either pilot sees it or not. In the case of AH the player with the fastest connection loses the collision even if the player is NOT in a position to "see" the impact, as in a rear end collision. It has happened to me several times. I got rammed from behind and never knew the bandit was there. No pings, no tracers just instant tower reset.

In this game the target is damaged if the firing FE "see's it whether or not the target FE say's it "should be so" or not. Why should collisions be different?

To avoid "wholesale" abuse of collisions simply set it so that BOTH planes die and NO points are awarded either way. Now that there are 4 buffs in formation the idea that a single "suicide" fighter will dewstroy the mission is gone. Heck if the buffs are high, they can out maneuver the fighter anyhow.

That's my opinion and position, now flame away.

Maverick,

Imagine that you are fast in a 109. There is a Lancaster above you flying straight and level. You zoom-climb attack and end up flying straight up 50' in front of his nose. From your FE, you missed him by 50'. On his FE, your plane may have hit his. Weather he actually was looking and "saw" you or not, or could have maneuvered out of the way in time or not does not matter, he collided with you. At your end of the game, you avoided a collision, at his end, he crashed. It does not matter who has the better connect, it's who's FE saw the collision!

I have got no problem with folks who want to try and collide with me or anyone else. If they are successful, good for them. What I wouldn't want to see, is a situation where I'm 100 behind an enemy, working a gun solution, and then his FE detects a collision, so we both die.

"In this game the target is damaged if the firing FE "see's it whether or not the target FE say's it "should be so" or not. Why should collisions be different?"

They aren't any different Maverick! Think about it!

eskimo

Wotan · « **Reply #50 on:** May 19, 2002, 03:48:16 PM »

its been explained 1000 times. Folks are just making stuff up with out testing it themselves. you and mrripley goto a h2h room and take turns ramming each other then come bac here and tell us what happened.

Have 1 guy fly level have 1 guy dive from hi 6 and ram dont fire your guns.

They will be ther first to on the bbs with a film showing how they werent even close but still died in a collision.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #51 on:** May 19, 2002, 05:09:24 PM »

Just as I can show you numerous films where I was hit by an enemy that wasn't pointing anywhere in my direction.

Where's the difference?

Wotan · « **Reply #52 on:** May 19, 2002, 06:18:35 PM »

thats the point doh

what u see on ur fe and what the other guy sees are different. You just proved what im saying.

On his fe you are in his sights and he sees himself pinging you. There fore you get the damage.

Had he rammed you on his fe where on your fe "he wasnt pointing at you" he would die you wouldnt. What you want is both of you to die in this circumstance. Then you would be whining about how you died in a collision when on your fe and on you film the guy wasnt even near you.

Thats difference. It aint rocket science. Its like talking to a rook errr .....rock in here sometimes.

Innominate · « **Reply #53 on:** May 19, 2002, 06:49:59 PM »

Collisions should be mutual, REGARDLESS of what the other person saw. I'm really getting sick of these people who play on what seems like 14.4 modems, warping, and hitting me, and then continuing on like nothing happened. The collision should kill both people, not whoever has the best connection.

I understand how collisions work right now, the point is that it shouldn't work that way. If one person gets a kill from a collision, he should be guarenteed to die as well. Nobody should ever WIN a collision. Either remove the ability to win them, or remove them completely, either way works, although mutual collisions would probably go a lot further to make people think twice about HO's.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #54 on:** May 19, 2002, 07:53:23 PM »

Innominate,

What you are suggesting would mean that any time an enemy aircraft is withing 300 yards of you, you could be involved in a collision, regardless of what you see. If the other guy has a porked connect, streatch that out to 2K!

Why should we think twice about HO's?
Pork the game to stop people from HOing...?
HTC has never discouraged HOs.

eskimo

Innominate · « **Reply #55 on:** May 19, 2002, 08:14:11 PM »

I would rather see odd collisions, as long as they're MUTUAL. Nobody should ever get a kill, and get away unscathed simply because they lag. Collisions ALWAYS favor the person with the worse connection. Mutual collisions would eliminate the free collision kills.

Other than that, turning collisions off is the only fair way to do it.

Fatty · « **Reply #56 on:** May 19, 2002, 08:15:53 PM »

Collisions do not favor the person with the slower connections.

They favor the person that avoids the collision.

SlapShot · « **Reply #57 on:** May 22, 2002, 02:16:02 PM »

HT is trying to simulate "Real Time" here, and no matter how he tries, he will NEVER accomplish the task (at least not in my lifetime). What you are expecting is "Real Time" ... don't hold your breath.

Lag ... Smag ... whatever you want to call it all boils down to your connection to the internet/AH Server (PING), how fast the AH server can interpret all the data packets, how fast the results can be sent back to YOUR FE, and last how fast your FE can translate the data packets to visuals. While all this taking place, your FE must continue to present smooth and as close to viable visuals. This is where the "smoothing" technique comes into play as I described above. Without this technique, this game would be unplayable. This is the major contributor to your frustration. While all this transmission/translation is taking place, it MAY APPEAR that your opponent has crashed into you, BUT he really hasn't ... at least not on his FE.

It all boils down to ... "What you see is what you get". Again, If YOU see a collision then YOU will die. If your opponent sees a collision then HE will die. If both see a collision, then BOTH will die. Need I describe the other permutations ...

If you have a "lag" problem then get a better ISP, and a kick-ass video card inside a kick-ass computer and most of your lag problems will disappear. If you can't do this, then deal with it. I have a machine with all of the above and I very rarely get "lag" and if I do, it is usually around a field that has been completely trashed (smoke and fire) and there are more that 20+ planes fighting in close proximity. Things get a little jerky but because I understand what is taking place, I can deal with it, rather than get frustrated.

If you are in an HO and stay with the HO till the point of collision, then you are:

1) Trying to protect a goon at all costs.

2) Believe that you will shoot down the opponent before a collision occurs.

3) Playing "chicken".

2) whatever ...

Any of the reasons stated above or any other reason that you can think of, with the exception of "1", then you got what you deserved.

Zaphod · « **Reply #58 on:** May 23, 2002, 03:12:22 AM »

I see both points on this however.......I can think of one way that net lag could negatively affect the player with the better/faster connect. Say two planes are flying in a straight line on a collision course (closure could be head to head or head to tail or any angle off I reckon). The plane with the laggier connect would "see" the collision after the plane with the better connect. If the the collision resulted in an explosion due to the crash then the plane with the better connect would see the collision first........right? Therefore it would blow up first and the plane with the laggy connect would simply fly through the explosion.

Now I agree with Wotan on this,.... it is STUPID to fly at another plane and NOT expect to collide (which is probably 90% of all collisions), however in the above case the laggy plane wins since the other plane blew first. In my experience it's best for me to simply avoid these situations. Especially since I don't shoot particularly well. There are some really, really good HO folks in here. The only problem I have with these people is that I can't shoot as well as they can

I typically go for angles and generally my confidence soars when someone is going for repeated HO moves. I have however collided in scissors situations and that's just one of those things. I figure when ur in that situation the first guy that breaks off the fight dies (unless you have the E to extend away in which case......I'll not be scissoring with the other fella.) Frequently in the slow scissors or rolling scissors collisions both rides take damage since it's kind of a glancing collision that doesn't result in a big 'ole boom. At any rate the whole thing is cool as can be and usually collisions are a result of me being unwilling to disengage, which is 90% of the fun of this game.......unwavering determination in the face of overwhelming odds to the point of stupidity!

Zaphod

eskimo2 · « **Reply #59 on:** May 23, 2002, 06:45:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Zaphod
I see both points on this however.......I can think of one way that net lag could negatively affect the player with the better/faster connect. Say two planes are flying in a straight line on a collision course (closure could be head to head or head to tail or any angle off I reckon). The plane with the laggier connect would "see" the collision after the plane with the better connect. If the the collision resulted in an explosion due to the crash then the plane with the better connect would see the collision first........right? Therefore it would blow up first and the plane with the laggy connect would simply fly through the explosion.

Now I agree with Wotan on this,.... it is STUPID to fly at another plane and NOT expect to collide (which is probably 90% of all collisions), however in the above case the laggy plane wins since the other plane blew first. In my experience it's best for me to simply avoid these situations. Especially since I don't shoot particularly well. There are some really, really good HO folks in here. The only problem I have with these people is that I can't shoot as well as they can I typically go for angles and generally my confidence soars when someone is going for repeated HO moves. I have however collided in scissors situations and that's just one of those things. I figure when ur in that situation the first guy that breaks off the fight dies (unless you have the E to extend away in which case......I'll not be scissoring with the other fella.) Frequently in the slow scissors or rolling scissors collisions both rides take damage since it's kind of a glancing collision that doesn't result in a big 'ole boom. At any rate the whole thing is cool as can be and usually collisions are a result of me being unwilling to disengage, which is 90% of the fun of this game.......unwavering determination in the face of overwhelming odds to the point of stupidity!

Zaphod

Zaphod,
What you described could only happen if BOTH player's FEs read the event as a collision (which is possible). In that case, however, both FEs would show a collision and both planes would be destroyed. If one player has a bad connect, crashes into the other, 2 seconds later the event is reported to the other player's FE, it's too late. That guy already crashed on his FE. Perhaps the kill may be awarded to the guy with the slower connect, but they both would die. (I think)

eskimo