Author Topic: UH HUH, Yeah Right.... (Read 1815 times)

Eagler · « **Reply #75 on:** May 03, 2002, 06:45:45 AM »

war crimes

isn't strapping a bomb on your arse and blowing up women and children a war crime?
OR can only Israel commit a "war crime" in the eyes of these terrorist sympathizers??

Curval · « **Reply #76 on:** May 03, 2002, 07:51:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nashwan

Sharon gave approval to three new settlements last week.

This is a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. It's a couple of years old, so there will be a few more now. It also shows the proposed area of the Palestinian "state" Barak offered:

When I said that colonialism isn't what we are talking about "here"...I was referring to the topic of the thread...Jenin

But...now that you have brought it up...

What a very pretty map you have provided. But, correct me if I am wrong...isn't that a map of ISRAEL? Just who is colonising who? I don't see any Palestinian land in Jordan or Syria...why not?

Also, providing ONE map with ONE final proposal of ONE attempt to solve the land debate isn't exactly the "be all and end all" of the debate.

Nashwan · « **Reply #77 on:** May 03, 2002, 08:02:48 AM »

No, that's a map of the West Bank.

It's not recognized as part of Israel by the UN, the US, Britain, or any major countries. Not even Israel officialy recognizes the West Bank as part of Israel.

The reason Israel doesn't claim it's part of Israel is because Israel is still, just about, a democracy. The West Bank has a population of several million Arabs, who don't have any vote because the West Bank is occupied territory. If the West Bank were to be made part of Israel, there couldn't be ay excuse for not giving the Arabs there the vote, as they were after all born there (or in Israel proper)

The current Arab/Jew population divide in the area of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is 53% Jewish, 47% Arab, with the Arab population growing faster.

That's what the whole issue is about, Israel wants the land without the Arabs who live there. Hence the very convoluted maps, trying to carve out territory whilst excluding arab population centres where possible.

Curval · « **Reply #78 on:** May 03, 2002, 08:45:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nashwan
No, that's a map of the West Bank.

Israel wants the land without the Arabs who live there. Hence the very convoluted maps, trying to carve out territory whilst excluding arab population centres where possible.

Okay...so the West Bank is neither Palestinian, nor is it Israeli...by your own admission.

So logically both sides are trying to colonise this region.

Your comment above, though, suddenly states that Israel wants the land "without" the Arabs there...yet YOUR map clearly shows that Israel recognises Palestinian control over areas in the West Bank...and that under this particular plan Arabs would be living in those controlled regions.

Which is it?

Nashwan · « **Reply #79 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:31:37 AM »

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Okay...so the West Bank is neither Palestinian, nor is it Israeli...by your own admission.

So logically both sides are trying to colonise this region.

That's bizarre. The West Bank is populated by Palestinians, occupied by the Israeli army.

col·o·nize Pronunciation Key (kl-nz)
v. col·o·nized, col·o·niz·ing, col·o·niz·es
v. tr.
1. To form or establish a colony or colonies in.
2. To migrate to and settle in; occupy as a colony.
3. To resettle or confine (persons) in or as if in a colony.
4. To subjugate (a population) to or as if to a colonial government

The Palestinians live in this territory, and have for generations. The Israeli settlers do not, most attracted in from America and Europe by cheap land and tax breaks. Thereis no possible way of twisting the facts to show the Palestinians are settling the West Bank.

It's sort of like saying black South Africans were colonists for trying to get political power. They are the indigenous population, just like the Palestinians are.

Quote

Your comment above, though, suddenly states that Israel wants the land "without" the Arabs there...yet YOUR map clearly shows that Israel recognises Palestinian control over areas in the West Bank...and that under this particular plan Arabs would be living in those controlled regions.

Which is it?

Israel cannot wish the Palestinians away. They cannot deport several million people, the bulk of Israelis are against it, the rest of the world certainly would be, and none of Israel's neighbours would take them in anyway.

Israel is drawing up borders to accomodate as much land as possible with as few Palestinians as possible. A few hundred thousand extra Palestinians don't matter, they are too few in number to have any political power. Several million do matter, they equal the Jewish population, and very soon Israel would no longer be a Jewish state.

The borders in that map are an attempt to expand the territory of Israel, whilst giving the Palestinians limited self government over the remainder. Israel would still have overall control, critically Israel would retain control of all water sources. In other words, Israel gets good land, water to irrigate it, and the Palestinians are pushed off into homelands, similar to the ones South Africa tried to set up for it's indigenous populations.

Curval · « **Reply #80 on:** May 03, 2002, 09:50:35 AM »

Okay...back to the old debate of whose land it is.

It is always so convienient to state that the Palestinians are the indiginous population of this area. Fact is the Jews have been there as long as they have...tax breaks etc. is simply a cop out Nashwan. Read your bible for heavens sake!

Don't the Palestinians actually "come from" Jordan?

If you really want to "split hairs" it is basically IMPOSSIBLE to determine where the Palestinians/Arabs come from. They have historically been a nomadic people, who move from area to area - essentailly they colonized an area for short durations of time and then moved on to another. Permanent settlements is a relatively recent concept for them in terms of the history of the entire region.

Nashwan · « **Reply #81 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:10:16 AM »

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It is always so convienient to state that the Palestinians are the indiginous population of this area. Fact is the Jews have been there as long as they have...tax breaks etc. is simply a cop out Nashwan. Read your bible for heavens sake!

The Jews were largely scattered and expelled by the Romans.

The Crusaders massacred Jews wholesale, and banned them from Jerusalem. By the time of the Turkish conquest of Palestine, there were few Jews left.

The first accurate census ever taken in the area in modern times was the British census of 1922. It recorded a population of:
Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890
Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794
Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024
Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028
Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163
Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265
Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156
Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454
Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408

That's after 2 decades of Jewish immigration.

In 1948, the UN partition plan sepperated the land into two countries, with an area for the Palestinians, and one for the Israelis. Since that time, Israel has expanded greatly, absorbed many areas that were allocated to the Palestinians. The West Bank and Gaza are all that is left of the Palestinian areas, and Israel is actively colonising them.

Palestinians who can prove they were bon in Israel are not allowed to return, and those that can prove they owned land in Israel are not entitled to claim it, it is held by the Israeli state.

Curval · « **Reply #82 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:14:08 AM »

Okay...show me a census of the area from 2000 BC and then we can talk.

Nashwan · « **Reply #83 on:** May 03, 2002, 10:21:12 AM »

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It is always so convienient to state that the Palestinians are the indiginous population of this area. Fact is the Jews have been there as long as they have...tax breaks etc. is simply a cop out Nashwan. Read your bible for heavens sake!

Go here, a settler organisation, and it tells you when the settlements were founded.
http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/yishsort.htm

The oldes was founded 1946, the next oldest 1967, a couple in 68, and then lots from 1970 onwards.

Quote

Okay...show me a census of the area from 2000 BC and then we can talk

I could provide proof it was a part of the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, perhaps Italy could reclaim the area?

I could provide a Roman census of Britain from 2000 years ago, showing the country full of Celts with no Angles or Saxons, perhaps the Celts should kick the English out of England?

Perhaps the Arabs can reclaim Spain, unless the Visigoths turn up to assert their prior ownership, of course the Romans have a stronger claim still.

Silly, isn't it?

Curval · « **Reply #84 on:** May 03, 2002, 12:39:31 PM »

Silly perhaps...

But you have stated that the Palestinians are the indigenous population of the West Bank/Israel..whatever...

I see nothing in what you have written that confirms this to me.

So what if this area was part of the Roman Empire in 2000BC?...I don't doubt it...every other race/populous has "had a go" at the Jews, why should the Romans be any different....what I was looking for was a population census of the region during those times. I don't know for a fact, but I have a feeling the figures will contradict your 1922 stats and show that there were probably very few ansestors of the current Palestinian population lived there.

Udie · « **Reply #85 on:** May 03, 2002, 12:49:06 PM »

Nashwan,

Where was Ariel Sharon born?

Where was arafat born?

Udie · « **Reply #86 on:** May 03, 2002, 03:12:34 PM »

What's the matter guys did I take the wind out of your sails?

Answer the questions....

Where was Ariel Sharon born?

Where was arafat born?

takeda · « **Reply #87 on:** May 03, 2002, 04:13:11 PM »

Stupid nosense

Arafat was borned in Cairo from palestinian parents
Sharon was borned in Tel Aviv from russian parents

That's more or less a draw for your stupid quiz

And that was many years ago, in fact i think too many. They are a pair of silly old farts, can´t imagine why you have to love one of them so much

Udie · « **Reply #88 on:** May 03, 2002, 04:20:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by takeda
Stupid nosense

Arafat was borned in Cairo from palestinian parents
Sharon was borned in Tel Aviv from russian parents

That's more or less a draw for your stupid quiz

And that was many years ago, in fact i think too many. They are a pair of silly old farts, can´t imagine why you have to love one of them so much

Well actually I don't love Sharon I just support him. But how ever many years ago it was the fact is that one person is FROM that country the other is from Egypt. One fights defending his land of birth, the other commits terrorist acts while claiming to be only trying to regain his homeland when his homeland is another country all together. It points out just another bit of hypocracy from arafat.

skernsk · « **Reply #89 on:** May 03, 2002, 04:42:20 PM »

sheesh the only thing good in this thread are Elfentard's posts.

You guys are never going to agree just like Side A and Side B in the West Bank aint never going to agree. All I know is that the doomsday clock is ticking.

I blame this entire frigging thing on religion. I say do away with all organized religions once and for all. HOW??? Tax the f*ckers. From here on it I'm worshiping the "great spirit", the sun god and perhaps Venus the godess of love.

So who wants to flame me first for my ungodly words?