Author Topic: some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.  (Read 1102 times)

Offline wsnpr

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Please read everything before responding, thanks.  :)

Some questions:

For you 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' people, please tell me:

1) What  positive things the United States and/or Israel has ever done for the Palestinian people since 1948?
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Let's look at some of the major Palestinian terrorist incidents and perhaps see if there is a reason for such incidents:

2) What events by the Israelis might have led to the first commercial hijackings of 68-69 (forgot the exact date-sorry)?

3) What events previous by the Israelis might have led to the Munich Olympics terrorism of '72?

4) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?

5) Why would many (not all) Palestinians dance in the streets upon seeing the WTC attacks?

Perhaps you might see some 'cause and effect' reasons/events, perhaps not.

Please post something a little deeper than:
1) They just want to kill people for no reason.
2) They are just jealous of other's freedoms and religions.
3) They are bored.
4) No insults, labeling, or name calling please (it's just not an intelligent, mature thing to do).

Perhaps if we all look deep into the problems, to find the root cause of it all, we can then find viable solutions.

BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.

Offline Defiance

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2002, 03:17:14 PM »
"BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian."

Well from where i come from the above would  mean "Neutral"

So why post this post if you seem to be neither for or against either side ?

Dosen't make sense to my braincell

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Offline Squire

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2002, 06:00:25 PM »
I find it disturbing that so many debate this issue, but tend to leave out this part:

What major event in Europe led to the creation of the Israeli state?

Put in context first. Then ask the same questions.

As for the Israelis being somehow responsible for the 1972 Munich and the hijackings earlier? Well, please, I guess then Bin Laden was justified in the WTC attacks then?

Sorry, I cant stomach the "blame the victim" philosophy. "You brought it on yourselves", thats what it sounds like you are saying. Just remember that next time more civilians die.

As for the Palestinian people. They deserve much better than they have got in this world, true enough. I feel they have been poorly led by Arafat, and the Arab world has used them more for politics in their struggle to gain dominance over Israel than any genuin concern over their well being. Had those states worked towards a peacefull solution to begin with, there would probably be a seperate palestinian state/homeland by now (which they deserve).

The rest of it is a"tit for tat" debate, and I see no usefull purpose in taking on the rest of those points above. No matter what you conclude re Munich ect. it doesnt excuse terror, no matter if you find injustices perpetuated by Israel (which you will find, cuz they aint perfect either).  

...Btw, who did kill those 500,000 Rwandans? oh wait, wrong part of the world, nevermind.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2002, 06:02:28 PM by Squire »
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2002, 11:45:07 PM »
wsnpr

They are at war pure and simple. It's everyones fault Jew and Arab.

Your questions are pointless, as any pro-Isreal type can just ask the exact questions in reverse.

Offline MuadDib of Dune

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2002, 12:24:11 AM »
I personally do not support either peoples involved.  Unfortunately I cant say the same for my country.

In the final analysis I personally believe the arab nations will be the trigger that destroys modern contemporary civilization.  But thats just my opinion.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2002, 01:14:57 AM »
All ism fanatic religious dweebs should be removed from this planet for a start no matter where they live.

Humanity, respect and peace that's what's our religion should be.

Where all on the same planet and no god is gonna save u when we blow it up.

Offline ~Caligula~

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2002, 01:38:45 AM »
Quote
1) What positive things the United States and/or Israel has ever done for the Palestinian people since 1948?


What positive have the arabs done...period?
I`m trying hard,but can`t think of anything.
Quote
2) What events by the Israelis might have led to the first commercial hijackings of 68-69 (forgot the exact date-sorry)?

3) What events previous by the Israelis might have led to the Munich Olympics terrorism of '72?

4) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?



Jews exist.The arabs don`t like that fact,and try to do everything they can to change that.

Quote
5) Why would many (not all) Palestinians dance in the streets upon seeing the WTC attacks?


Because they hate the US,and all western people.They love to see us die and suffer.To them America is an evil empire.That`s what they`ve been tougt.

Offline Nashwan

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2002, 04:52:07 AM »
Quote
) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Jews exist.The arabs don`t like that fact,and try to do everything they can to change that.

I found an interesting article on the Israeli government website (the English version is run by the Israeli foreign ministry)

Quote
Experience gathered in recent years enables Israel's Security Services to draw very roughly a profile of a suicide-terrorist. According to research of security officials, he is generally single, age between 18 and 27. He comes from a family of limited means, and is himself either unemployed or has a meagre income. According to the research, the desire for a good life in the world to come is a most critical component in the motivation of these terrorists.

Most of the suicides have little education. Practically all of them are pupils from religious educational institutions in the Gaza Strip or the territories, administered and funded by HAMAS (hence the demand of the General Security Services to close these institutions. Or at least cut off their sources of funding.)


According to accumulated testimony, most of the suicides were beset by hard mental distress, the source of which was friction with the Israeli occupation. Either because they themselves were physically hurt or humiliated by soldiers or Israeli civilians, or someone from their family underwent a bad incident like that.

The case of the terrorist Iman Radi is typical. He blew himself up at the transport station for soldiers next to Binyanei Haooma in Jerusalem, last month. During the Intifada soldiers broke into his family home, in the refugee camp near Khan Yunis, a number of times. In one case a soldier hit his mother with the rifle butt badly in the face. Iman carried his mother in his arms to the hospital. His sister, the family claim, miscarried her fetus after one of these night visits. Iman himself was taken out of the house many times and forced under threats and blows to erase graffiti that was painted by his friends on the walls of the houses in the camp.

It is therefore a matter of people who grew up in the period of the Intifada, and the experiences they underwent in the years their personalities were formed created in them elements of impotent anger and frustration, that seek some channel of release for them. Religion serves as an escape for them. All of the suicides stand out in their adherence to religion and in a fanatic fulfillment in daily life of its principles and commands. Religious fanaticism was generally also accompanied by national extremism, and that is basically what motivates their readiness to commit suicide.

Nonetheless, the experts claim, fanaticism by itself is not sufficient. It is always accompanied by secondary motivations, that give the suicide terrorist an extra final push, that enables him to execute his mission. One important secondary motivation is the desire to imitate other suicides who succeeded in their missions and earned great prestige in the Palestinian community.


Another secondary motivation is the desire to avenge. The massacre in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, for example, is one of the important elements of motivation of the sucide terrorists. This motivation has not lost its significance although a year has passed since Baruch Goldstein fired on Muslims bowed in prayer. Also the elimination of the senior Jihad figure Hani Abed, and the killings of three Palestinian policemen by IDF soldiers near the Erez checkpoint, created a motivation that gave the final push to some of the executors of recent suicide attacks.


Not from some Palestinian site, or a human rights group, or a foreign government. From the Israeli government itself at
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ccm0

End the occupation, and the suicide attacks will stop too.

Offline Eagler

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2002, 06:57:26 AM »
Some say if it wasn't for our support of Israel, the attacks on the WTC, the USS Cole and all the others would not have happened.

I say "BS"

I think if it wasn't for Israel taking the brunt of the Arab worlds hatred of modern Western civilization, the US would be.

Even with Israel, it's just a matter of time before our warm & fuzzy liberal views turn our country into an Israeli look alike. Even then we'll have lib lawyers screaming for the rights of the terrorist orgs in the states :rolleyes:

Just maybe part of the hate the Arab world vents on Israel has nothing to do with Palestine. Maybe just maybe it is because Israel is pro US...
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Offline Hortlund

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Re: some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2002, 07:10:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wsnpr
1) What positive things the United States and/or Israel has ever done for the Palestinian people since 1948?

Uh? Considering the Palestinian track record against Israel the real question should be "Why should the US or Israel do anything positive for the Palestinians".
Quote

Let's look at some of the major Palestinian terrorist incidents and perhaps see if there is a reason for such incidents:

2) What events by the Israelis might have led to the first commercial hijackings of 68-69 (forgot the exact date-sorry)?

As far as I know, the first commercial hijackings was in 1970. Within the space of two hours on September 6, PFLP gangs hijacked a TWA jet, a Swissair jet, and made an unsuccessful attempt to seize control of an El Al airplane. About two hours later, another PFLP group hijacked a Pan Am jet and forced the crew to fly to Beirut airport, where the airplane landed almost out of fuel. The next day the airliner was flown to the Cairo airport, where it was blown up only seconds after the 176 passengers and crew had completed their three-minute forced evacuation.

Problem (for you) is that these hijackings were aimed at Jordan, not Israel. King Hussein viewed the hijackings as a direct threat to his authority in Jordan.

[Long and complicated story. The short version is this: The six days war radicalized the Palestinians, who had looked to the Arab countries to defeat first the Jewish community of Palestine before 1948, and after 1948 the State of Israel, so that they could regain their homeland. The PLO had no role in the six days War though. After the succession of Arab failures in conventional warfare against Israel,  the Palestinians decided to adopt "guerrilla warfare" tactics as the most effective method of attacking Israel. In February 1969, Arafat became head of the PLO. He began reorganizing the PLO and began focusing on eh..unconventional warfare. By early 1970, at least seven hrm…unconventional  organizations were identified in Jordan. One of the most important organizations was the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP).

At first by conviction and then by political necessity, Hussein sought accommodation with the Palestinians and provided training sites and assistance. In Jordan's internal politics, however, the main issue between 1967 and 1971 was the struggle between the government and the guerrilla organizations for political control of the country. Based in the refugee camps, the Palestinians virtually developed a state within a state, easily obtaining funds and arms from both the Arab states and Eastern Europe and openly ignoring Jordanian law.

Tension grew between the government and the Palestinians, and soon small clashes between Pals and Jordan army units occurred. Over time, more and more attacks were mounted by both sides and the country was slowly thrown into a civil war. At the same time Israel was negotiating peace with Jordan and Egypt (these negotiations would eventually lead to Egypt getting back the Sinai) The hijackings on September 6th was aimed at disrupting those peace talks. Hussein wanted peace with Israel, now the Palestinians inside his own country were openly defying him, and challenging his control over the nation.]

In response, on September 16 King Hussein reaffirmed martial law and gave his army orders to quell the Palestinians inside his country. Civil war broke out. Syria sent 200 tanks to help the Palestinians. Israel mobilized and prepared to enter the fray (to save the current government in Jordan) and the US sixth fleet moved into position. In light of this, the arab neighbors forced the parties to a peace.
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3) What events previous by the Israelis might have led to the Munich Olympics terrorism of '72?

Actually if you knew a bit more about history, you would know what I'm about to tell you now. The Palestinian terrorist group that was responsible for the Munich attack was called "Black September". Black September refers to the civil war in Jordan in September 1970.
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4) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?

Beats me, you'll have to be more specific. Most of the 90ies saw liberal Israeli governments falling over themselves to appease the Palestinians. Do you mean early 90s or late 90s?
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5) Why would many (not all) Palestinians dance in the streets upon seeing the WTC attacks?

Because they see the US as their enemy. This because the US is Israel's most faithful ally. And (being Palestinian/Arab) they see suicide attacks aimed at innocent civilians, women and children, as the best way to attack your enemy.
Quote

Please post something a little deeper than:
1) They just want to kill people for no reason.
2) They are just jealous of other's freedoms and religions.
3) They are bored.
4) No insults, labeling, or name calling please (it's just not an intelligent, mature thing to do).
Perhaps if we all look deep into the problems, to find the root cause of it all, we can then find viable solutions.

Yeah, and then we can mail those solutions to the Israelis and the Palestines. Perhaps this will convince them that they should not be fighting but instead try to live in peace?
Quote

BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.

roadkill. You are pro Palestinian. At least have the guts to stand for it.

Offline Masherbrum

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2002, 07:32:47 AM »
My 2 pennies.   I understand where the sentiment of the palestians and have for a long time.  think about it, in 1948 you have to leave your home and carry what you can to either Gaza, Golan heights or the west Bank.   Didn't Hitler do the same to Poland, oh but that was different wasn't it?  

I was born and raised in America and am not Paletinian, Jewish.  But I am sick and tired of other catastrophies happening elsewhere, but becuase the Isreali's WANTED (in 1948) more than they could handle, I'm supposed to favor them?  

My sister was fired from the Ann arbor News 14 years ago because of East Timor, because she "was supposed to ignore that wire coming in off the AP.".  We really learned about that one after it had been going on for 10 years.  Pathetic, that this is how our media is run and believed.   Why do most people even believe half of the toejam they read in newspaper?!  I mean people believe what Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and they both diddlyed up the election if you stop and think about it!  Both of them, would screw up a one-car funeral?!

If you also believe that ALL of the palestians were cheering, you are mistaken.   My barber and his dad are 100% Lebanese and laughed at the American reactions to the "loaded clips" shown over the air, to increase a "military presence".    I intially thought the same, but after hearing him speak and watching the footage, I realized what he said "They are all children, and they would do that."  

You guys came flame me all you want, but when it really comes down to it.  I'm an American and give a rat's bellybutton about Israel or any country for that matter, except MY COUNTRY, the united States of America.  

Basically, Israeli's won't get much sympathy here.  We founded our country on almost similar terms to what happened to the Palestinians.

Masher
« Last Edit: May 23, 2002, 07:45:07 AM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Hortlund

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2002, 08:09:18 AM »
Read a book or something, you might learn something (hopefully).

You can believe anything you want, its both sad and pathetic to see someone base his opinions on flawed facts though.

[edit] simple fact of the matter is that your post is so full of factual errors that I cannot be bothered to point them all out.

Sorry.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2002, 08:11:24 AM by Hortlund »

Offline Masherbrum

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2002, 08:16:13 AM »
I don't know why i posted, the genius is always right!    I read enough thank you for caring.
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Offline Masherbrum

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2002, 08:18:51 AM »
One other thing.  Are "factual errors" the same as "Near misses", Minor catastrophies", "clean showers" and other oxymorons?  yes, they are.  thanks.    

Masher
« Last Edit: May 23, 2002, 08:24:23 AM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Nashwan

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some questions for the 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' crowd.
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2002, 08:29:29 AM »
Quote
As far as I know, the first commercial hijackings was in 1970.

1968. PFLP, El Al plane en-route to Rome.

Another one in 69, and another two in 1970 before the hijacks you are talking about.

Masherbrum, ignore Hortlund. His usual tactic is to tell people to read a book or something.

Check out the other terrorism thread. He doesn't actually seem to read up on any facts himself, obviously.