Author Topic: The law?  (Read 1735 times)

Offline easymo

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The law?
« on: June 10, 2002, 11:19:41 PM »
The thread about Jose, has people talking about whether it can go boom or not.  I am more interested in the fact that they pulled a native born American off of the street and locked him up indefinitely,and this is legal.

  If he joined a foreign Army. Fine. He gave up his citizenship. And his rights.  But, where is the due process, to determine if he did in fact join one.  Apparently they can pull anyone in.  toejamcan their rights. All they have to say is he joined a foreign army.  This isn't Walker. He wasn't found on a battlefield. If they can do it to him.  They can do it to any of us. All they have to do is make up some story about a meeting.

  Can anyone explain the law that allows them to do this?

 Jr. has made the worst attack on the Constitution, since Roseavelt threw Japanese Americans into camps.  I think its time to start talking impeachment.

Offline Animal

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The law?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2002, 11:26:24 PM »
Can you please post a link to that other thread you are refering to?

Offline easymo

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The law?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2002, 11:29:28 PM »
The dirty bomber thread

Offline Elfenwolf

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The law?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2002, 11:48:32 PM »
Easymo, I started to post exactly that same sentiment earlier today but got too bzy. Appearently the Justice Department didn't have enough evidence to charge Jose so he was turned over to the Dept. Of Defense where he can be held indefinately and then tried by a panel of military officers in SECRET PROCEEDINGS where he can possibly be sentanced to death by firing squad or by hanging. All this for an American citizen arrested on American soil.

Don't blame GW entirely for this one, BTW. Our Senate was falling all over itself to suspend part of their powers to the Executive branch on 9-12. I've been preaching for months now about the willingness of so many to give up our rights in the wake of 9-11, but realize that among those rights you are so willing to give up is your right to a speedy trial, right to a jury of your peers and right to compent legal council. Why is anyone surprised by this? I expect lots more people getting locked up indefinately in the name of National Security.

Offline Sandman

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The law?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2002, 11:53:49 PM »
No kidding... Zacarias Moussaoui gets a trial and Padilla does not.

Makes no sense...:(
sand

Offline weazel

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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2002, 12:22:20 AM »
But whoevers advising him is a cunning bastard.

The use of military tribunals will allow them to make sure we never get the complete story of 9/11...or the events leading up to it.

Jr. has made the worst attack on the Constitution, since Roseavelt threw Japanese Americans into camps. I think its time to start talking impeachment.

I fully agree,  a few more years of Bush could cause more  damage to the American way of life than terrorists could hope to do.

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent.

Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers.

The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

Offline easymo

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The law?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2002, 12:42:36 AM »
":The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

  That quote kind of sizes up my feelings on the matter. I don't belive there is anything sinister in what the Bush administration is doing. I belive that Jr. is quite sincere in trying to protect the American people.  The problem is, he is trying to Forrest Gump his way through a very complex problem.  Long after he is taken out, by a pretzel, or a carrot stick, or something.  We will have to live with the mess he made.  I am no lawyer (thank god) But my limited understanding is that much of the way the law works is based on precedent.  Human nature being what it is.  If a judge somewhere makes a decision on something. Through the following years, rather than actually do something, other judges will just differ to the first judge's decision.  What Jr. admin. is doing sets a very scary precedent.

BTW. As much as it pains me to agree with sandman about anything.  I have to admit what he posted is the first thing that went through my mind.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2002, 12:48:34 AM by easymo »

Offline Tac

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The law?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2002, 12:56:01 AM »
"Long after he is taken out, by a pretzel, or a carrot stick, or something"

:D :D :D :D

*passes out laughing*

Offline john9001

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The law?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2002, 12:59:41 AM »
and after jose blows somthing up and kills many people , you 'civil rights" people will say "WHY DIDN'T THE FBI DOOOO SOMETHING, THEY KNEW ABOUT HIM" whine whine

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2002, 01:11:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
and after jose blows somthing up and kills many people , you 'civil rights" people will say "WHY DIDN'T THE FBI DOOOO SOMETHING, THEY KNEW ABOUT HIM" whine whine


You're wrong.
sand

Offline easymo

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The law?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2002, 01:14:25 AM »
John. If they have such damning evidence, why don't they just present it in an open court?  The American people are NOT in a lenient mood right now. It would take almost nothing to convince a court that he joined a foreign army.

  You don't know the guy.  All you know about him is what the government has told the newsweinies.  Your ready to hang him with that? We could all be in deep doo doo.

Offline Wotan

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The law?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2002, 02:41:12 AM »
Did have his al queda card in his wallet?

They picked him up with what appears to be  nothing but circumstantial evidence. They dont even have enough to take to a grand jury. Thats why the "foreign agent" crap.

This is just a smoke screen used to get attention off how incompetent the government looked wih all these revelations that show this xx agency knew xx prior to 9/11.

"Wow they caught a bomber they must be working together now, wtfg GWB."

BS

This guy suposedly killed 2 people when he was 14 they couldnt of found a guy people could careless about more . They'll mess around for a while (maybe years) until some judge says let umm go. Then you'll hear how messed up our justice system is because some "liberal" judge lets him go.

The guy was arrested may 8th why leak this now? You sheep all bah in unison

BAAAAAHd man
« Last Edit: June 11, 2002, 07:32:14 AM by Wotan »

Offline Leslie

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The law?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2002, 04:08:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by easymo
":The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

  That quote kind of sizes up my feelings on the matter. I don't belive there is anything sinister in what the Bush administration is doing. I belive that Jr. is quite sincere in trying to protect the American people.  The problem is, he is trying to Forrest Gump his way through a very complex problem.  Long after he is taken out, by a pretzel, or a carrot stick, or something.  We will have to live with the mess he made.  I am no lawyer (thank god) But my limited understanding is that much of the way the law works is based on precedent.  Human nature being what it is.  If a judge somewhere makes a decision on something. Through the following years, rather than actually do something, other judges will just differ to the first judge's decision.  What Jr. admin. is doing sets a very scary precedent.

BTW. As much as it pains me to agree with sandman about anything.  I have to admit what he posted is the first thing that went through my mind.


Not setting a precedent.  Jr. admin is following in Roosevelt's footsteps during WW11.  

Civil liberties have been limited during war time, and they've  been restored afterwards.  Could be martial law is otw for the US.  I don't want it to be like that.  Your and my rights are guanteed much more if this doesn't happen.

So, I must disagree with the way this is being presented as a permanent loss of civil rights.  


Les

Offline Hortlund

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The law?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2002, 04:31:50 AM »
Im just glad people like you are not in power.

You cling to your percieved rights like a drowning man to a straw.

Just for arguments sake, lets suppose it is true. Suppose the guy was planning to detonate a dirty bomb in Washington DC. If he would have succeded, you can write off DC as a place for human beings for the next couple of thousands of years (or hundreds of thousands of years, depending on what kind of radioactive material he would have used), you can also say hello to thousands of deaths immideately, another tens of thousands within the next 6 months, and add a couple of hundreds of thousands of deaths from various diseases in the years ahead.

What is the first thing you do? Start squeaking over the terrorists rights.

You are all diddlying idiots. A war against terroristm cannot be won by conventional methods, realize that.

Remember your reaction when the next Al Queida cell manage to set of their dirty bomb in some other city.

Offline Hortlund

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The law?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2002, 05:30:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by easymo
John. If they have such damning evidence, why don't they just present it in an open court?  The American people are NOT in a lenient mood right now. It would take almost nothing to convince a court that he joined a foreign army.


But perhaps the nature of the evidence is such that it is best kept out of the public light?

Suppose the evidence in this case is a couple of phonecalls, as well as a "secret meeting" between the terrorist and OBL (or whoever). If the Government would present these evidence in court, it would at the same time tell Al Queida "Yes, we can listen to your phonecalls, and yes, one of the guys in that secret meeting is one of our agents".

But Al Queida surely knows this already, that their phones are tapped and that we have spies inside their ranks. I hear you whine? They might suspect it, but they cant be sure. Also they might think that some of their lines of communication is safe. Most probably the information leading up to the arrest of this terrorist came from another intelligence agency (Mossad), and most probably they would never share any information again if one of their agents was blown in a US trial just to satisfy the bill of rights-hysterics in the US.

The less we know about the war on terrorism the better. Because what we know, the terrorists also know.