Author Topic: Tuskegee airmen (Read 1767 times)

Nath[BDP] · « **Reply #45 on:** July 16, 2002, 09:17:06 AM »

i want to be UBER SOLDAT LIKE IN WOLFTENSTEIN 3D WHERE TEY HAVE ROBOTS THAT KILL THE GERMAN SCIENTISTS!! WOW THAT WAS COOL

midnight Target · « **Reply #46 on:** July 16, 2002, 12:09:53 PM »

I agree with Oed' completely. No regard for Hartmann as a man, but you might have a good movie script there.

Hristo · « **Reply #47 on:** July 16, 2002, 01:26:37 PM »

So, all your countrymen refusing to go to Vietnam were respected ? Should GIs defect to North Vietnam after Mi Lai ?

If Hartmann took 109 to Switzerland or Britain, his family would end up in concetration camp. Period. He was in his early 20s, proud pilot flying for his nation in war. He did his best.

Allied bomber crews deserve simpathy ? 90% of their targets were german cities. Dresden anyone ?

As for success of movie about Hartmann. Don't underestimate the discreet attraction of the dark side. You don't have to go further than Anakin Skywalker.

Hortlund · « **Reply #48 on:** July 16, 2002, 02:41:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Oedipus
"
In the end that which they began by the Germans was dealt back to them at least ten fold. I guess it sucks to be the repressive aggressor and then get the sh&t kicked out of you.

Sympathy? You have to be kidding.

Thanks,
Oed

So basically what you are saying is that the allies were just as bad, or evil, as the Germans, and the Germans have no right to expect any sympathy.

I agree. The interesting point however is that the allies were just as bad as the Germans (although they did manage to kill many more) when it comes to terrorbombing.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #49 on:** July 16, 2002, 02:43:02 PM »

But none of the allies made a point of one race being the penultimate while the others worthy of extermination... and then it being put into excercise.

Try and demonize the allies as much as you want Hortlund, but sheeit... even today's Germany doesn't want to be associated with the 3rd Reich... that SHOULD tell you something.
-SW

Hortlund · « **Reply #50 on:** July 16, 2002, 02:47:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
But none of the allies made a point of one race being the penultimate while the others worthy of extermination... and then it being put into excercise.

Try and demonize the allies as much as you want Hortlund, but sheeit... even today's Germany doesn't want to be associated with the 3rd Reich... that SHOULD tell you something.
-SW

Ah, yes..how original...when discussing allied carpetbombing of German cities, the Holocaust pops into the discussion.

gee...never seen that happen before.

So, your point here is...what exactly?
Germany murdered many innocent Jews, therefore the fact that the allies murdered many German civilians is irrellevant?

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #51 on:** July 16, 2002, 02:53:16 PM »

No, but you try to flip the card over that says "Hey, but you guys did it too!"

Okay, we did it AFTER Germany did it. See how it works? The Allies didn't initiate much of anything, the entire war was essentially retaliation after Germany stunned the world with it's Blitzkrieg, mass murdering of civilians, and then proceeding to terror bomb British cities (and others, but they didn't last quite as long as Britain held).

But again, you are trying to paint a portrait that Nazis and the Allies were just as evil. And that is exactly where the holocaust comes into play. One side was giving their lives to free a people and ensure freedom for future generations, the other side was giving their lives to further exterminate those people.

And you still try to make it out like the Allies were just as bad as Germany.....
-SW

Animal · « **Reply #52 on:** July 16, 2002, 02:55:18 PM »

So, in other words, you are a closet NAZI sympathizer who dreams of going back to WWII and flying as a Luftwaffe pilot for the Fuhrer, and you try to justify this to yourself by coming to this BBS and being devil's advocate to NAZI warriors, pointing out that many German civilians were killed by Allied bombers (wich was a direct consequence of the actions by the same NAZIs you idolatrize secretly)

Hitler killed all those people in Dresden.

And no movies are made about Hartmann because no one wants to see a movie about a stinking racist NAZI with an overblown kill record without proof, set by propagandists as a poor example that NAZI warriors were better than the rest.

Oh, but he had no choice!

midnight Target · « **Reply #53 on:** July 16, 2002, 02:56:27 PM »

lol, here Oed'

Animal · « **Reply #54 on:** July 16, 2002, 03:08:46 PM »

Oh and why the hell should Hollywood have portrayed the Tuskeege's losing against German aces?
They never encountered Hartmann. In fact, most NAZI pilots left then were kids with no combat experience.

NAZI pilots were as a whole average at best. There were the few aces with many kills (and any obvious, non biased person knows most were lies) but as pointed before, the grand mayority were mediocre pilots, no better or worse than the average American fighter pilot.

And the Tuskegee Airmen, having the pressure of proving that they were not sub-standard humans or apes incapable of excelling whites, really did well against the Krauts, as portrayed in the film.

Hristo · « **Reply #55 on:** July 16, 2002, 03:12:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Animal

And no movies are made about Hartmann because no one wants to see a movie about a stinking racist NAZI with an overblown kill record without proof, set by propagandists as a poor example that NAZI warriors were better than the rest.

Chuck Yeager was gay, he had to offer his bellybutton to resistance so they smuggle him across. He actually enjoyed non-washing for 3 months. His sound barrier breaking is a fiction, everyone knows it was a cold war propaganda, trying to make US pilots better than rest.

How did I do ?

Animal · « **Reply #56 on:** July 16, 2002, 03:14:20 PM »

Clever guy, I guess you caught me.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #57 on:** July 16, 2002, 03:25:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund

Ah, yes..how original...when discussing allied carpetbombing of German cities, the Holocaust pops into the discussion.

gee...never seen that happen before.

So, your point here is...what exactly?
Germany murdered many innocent Jews, therefore the fact that the allies murdered many German civilians is irrellevant?

The Axis civilians were bombed and killed in order to END the war, a war that was started by the Axis.
The Axis countries wanted to kill off or enslave the world population... this was evil at in its purist form.
The Allies wanted an end to this. They were FORCED into the war in order to protect themselves, and to free those who were already enslaved.
The Allies had to chose the most efficient methods to bring the Axis countries to their knees. Anything less would mean MORE Allied deaths. Why should they put themselves at greater risk?

What difference does it make if a 14 year old German boy dies after being forced (or brainwashed) into joining the Nazi party and military, versus dying during a bombing raid? The difference is, in the first circumstance he is given a gun, and poses a threat.

Axis wartime industrial infrastructure, was not just Messerschmitt factories and oil refineries in Polesti, it was everywhere. Almost all Axis citizens contributed to the Axis war waging might. This does not make these citizens evil.
It does not mean that they deserve to die.
Killing them, however, may be an unfortunate necessity in order to end a war that was costing thousands of lives on both sides on a daily basis.

eskimo

Hristo · « **Reply #58 on:** July 16, 2002, 03:35:01 PM »

And original idea of the thread was the portrayal of Axis pilots as flying idiots in Hollywood movies.

Hortlund · « **Reply #59 on:** July 16, 2002, 04:24:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Animal
So, in other words, you are a closet NAZI sympathizer who dreams of going back to WWII and flying as a Luftwaffe pilot for the Fuhrer, and you try to justify this to yourself by coming to this BBS and being devil's advocate to NAZI warriors, pointing out that many German civilians were killed by Allied bombers (wich was a direct consequence of the actions by the same NAZIs you idolatrize secretly)

Hitler killed all those people in Dresden.

And no movies are made about Hartmann because no one wants to see a movie about a stinking racist NAZI with an overblown kill record without proof, set by propagandists as a poor example that NAZI warriors were better than the rest.

Oh, but he had no choice!

Animal, Animal, Animal... Try to listen to classical music, apparently that has been known to stimulate IQ. Maybe Nath can give you some tips on good music.

We could sit here all night and discuss various cause and effect-relations. All of which would probably be very interesting on some philosophical level... Let me just ask this: If you are of the opinion that someone other than the one giving the actual order is responsible for the obliteration of Dresden, then why stop at Hitler? Why not go to the root causes of why Hitler came to power? Well, should we blame the versaille treaty (=France)? Or how about Hitlers parents?

And apparently you dont know all that much about how a German pilot was awarded a kill. But that was to be expected. Let me just say that it was harder for a German pilot to be awarded a kill than an allied pilot.

And trust me, if I had the money, I could make a movie about Hartmann that would have kids lining up to play luftwaffe aces.