Wise words

[midnight Target]

How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?"

So if we didn't ask him to "leave us alone" we would have been ok? Sounds like the blame game to me.

Did YOU read your post?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target


First who said 1890's?

So the 50's were better than today? Are you sure Hortlund? You've been watching too many movies bud.

Womens rights - Nonexistent
Racial Equality - Read your history books
McCarthyism - HUAC is not just the sound a gavel makes.

and much much more.  Don't come into the paint with that weak stuff, I'll swat it into the cheap seats!

I said 1890s as an example of a period in time when man feared and invited God into their hearts. As well as the 1950s.

And I guess it all depends on what you value most. And how much faith you have in mankind. In the 1950s you had some things that we would never accept today. But you also had a completely different attitude towards authority, your fellow man, your family, your life.

Do you *really* think that it would be impossible to have womens rights and racial equality without the hippies and their drugs and screw-with-whomever-however-whenever- philosophy?

[Animal]

So in the 1890s you had the Crusades, Inquisition, Conquistadors, burning at the stake, the plague, widespread slavery?

Or in the 1950s?

If you think about it, everything went downhill from the 60s and the "sexual liberation". Damn hippies and their drugs destroyed old values. After that its just getting worse and worse.

So you are saying that the 1890 - 1950 period was a blissful time of peace and prosperity?

Hmmm... I seem to recall the biggest wars in history happened in that time lapse.

People who had the same skin color as I do, were abused and lynched and were not considered human. And guess what, it was not a rare occurence that was looked at in awe on television. It was the norm.

Women were treated like they were inferior to men. Nothing was expected out of them other than household chores and sexual satisfaction.

Cold war paranoia.


........no thanks, I much rather live in this godless hippie time without "old values" (oxymoron).

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target


So if we didn't ask him to "leave us alone" we would have been ok? Sounds like the blame game to me.

I do not have the answer to that question. No one has. But it is not about blame midnight. Why are you getting so defensive?

Search in your heart, and you might find the answer. I know what I believe is the answer to that question. But then again, I believe in the "old" values. (after all that's what makes me a conservative)

[Animal]

Originally posted by Hortlund

But you also had a completely different attitude towards authority, your fellow man, your family, your life.

Dude, do you seriously believe 1890 - 1950's family life was like in those lovable sitcoms? Wake up man.
Why do you think there was this huge cultural rebellion in the 1960's? because it sucked. People were so uptight on their beliefs and feelings for fear of a good smiting (wich came in the way of lynchings, and beatings with the belt by good ol' god & state fearing dad) and you had to be really careful how people looked at you. It was very important that you fit to a certain mold.

And thankfully (for us not you) now we have true freedom, to the dismay of the likes of you

[midnight Target]

In the 1950s you had some things that we would never accept today. But you also had a completely different attitude towards authority, your fellow man, your family, your life.

In the 1950's

Authority - Was always right.

Changed by the Army McCarthy Hearings, The Democratic Convention of 1968, and Watergate. (not by religion or lack thereof)

Fellow Man - Was treated with kindness, as long as he looked like me.

Changed by people with the guts to stand up and take a beating so others that followed may have a chance. Some were religious leaders, but religion didn't change things here either.

Family - More "nuclear" families true. But if you were a single woman you were a spinster. A single man was OK. God forbid if you should be openly gay though. Probably an open invitation for at least a beating if not worse.

Again - changed by a lack of religion? Maybe so in this case, as religious values dictated that people who are different should be treated with scorn.

[GtoRA2]

What bothers me about this is its a attack on separation of church and state.

The is not a Christian country and the government should never have had anything religious in it at all.


Do you really want religious wackos running your country?

Yeah I know if your Christian that's fine, but what about all those other "Bad" religions  guess they don't count...

well they do, and that's why the government is to stand for the people not GOD.  So this message sucks.

Morals and religion are not tied together.

I know not to take another human life because its wrong, I do not need god in my life to know that.

Teach morals not myths.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Animal

So you are saying that the 1890 - 1950 period was a blissful time of peace and prosperity?

[/b]
No, Im not, I'm saying that people invited God into their hearts, more than they do now in that period of time.

Hmmm... I seem to recall the biggest wars in history happened in that time lapse.

[/b]
Yes?

People who had the same skin color as I do, were abused and lynched and were not considered human. And guess what, it was not a rare occurence that was looked at in awe on television. It was the norm.

[/b]
Not in Europe. You are seeing the world through american eyes.

Women were treated like they were inferior to men. Nothing was expected out of them other than household chores and sexual satisfaction.

[/b]
That was not the norm, that was individual. Some men have always been opressive amazinhunks, they are still around today, I get to meet them alot through my work.

........no thanks, I much rather live in this godless hippie time without "old values" (oxymoron).

Then I suppose you are perfectly content with your current situation, and the current state of affairs.

[Curval]

Steve...hippies were all about peace and love.  Fine, they did some drugs, but I cannot accept they they are responsible for all of todays societal evils.

Guys like Billy Graham and Jerry Faldwell are hypocritical phonies and I would be very careful when arguing their particular cases.  Their Christian values end as soon as the cheques clear in their bank accounts.

[Nifty]

Hortlund, public school and government are not there to instill Christian (or whatever religion you choose) values.  That is what parents, private schools, and places of worship are for.  Public school is to teach kids math, reading, science, social studies (oh, btw, ethics and civics are a part of this!  and get this, you can teach someone how to treat other people nicely without bringing your God into it), music, physical education and a few other things.

Now I'd like everyone who thinks we're trying to drive religion out of public schools to pay very close attention to this...  I do NOT care if little Johnny or Susie prays to whatever deity(ies) they want to in school.  I do care when Principal Smith or Teacher X leads the children in a prayer to the deity of the school's (or individual teacher's) choice.  THAT is what we are trying to remove from school.  "Under God" falls under that too, it's government endorsement of the Christian faith (Eisenhower was a very strong Christian man, nothing wrong with that other than the fact he injected his beliefs into the Pledge of Allegience).  Why am I making this distinction?  Because a lot of pro-God types are thinking we are anti-religion.  We (at least me) are NOT.  First amendment provides for freedom of religion, YET for separation of church and state.  Meaning you can practice religion as you want, yet the gov't (including a public school) should not be endorsing religion.  I'm busy here at work getting school policies online.  One of them caught my attention and it's why I came here to post this.  

A moment of silence, not to exceed two (2) minutes, may be provided for students at the beginning of each school day.

That's fine, in my opinion.  A child may pray, worship or whatever in those two minutes.  As to why only 2 minutes?  We pay taxes to teach children, not for them to pray or reflect on other things (such as that cute girl's butt in front of you...)  

[Animal]

Not in Europe. You are seeing the world through american eyes.

Oh sorry then. Though we seem to have forgotten the NAZI.
Those people also had values, right?

Then I suppose you are perfectly content with your current situation, and the current state of affairs.

Wouldnt trade it for the way it was back then.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Animal



Dude, do you seriously believe 1890 - 1950's family life was like in those lovable sitcoms? Wake up man.
Why do you think there was this huge cultural rebellion in the 1960's? because it sucked. People were so uptight on their beliefs and feelings for fear of a good smiting (wich came in the way of lynchings, and beatings with the belt by good ol' god & state fearing dad) and you had to be really careful how people looked at you. It was very important that you fit to a certain mold.

And thankfully (for us not you) now we have true freedom, to the dismay of the likes of you

Just out of curiosity..when you insult someone, why do you attach a smiley at the end of that sentence?

If I would say:
diddly you, you dumb lowlife, where do you think you get the right to judge me?

or if I said
 
diddly you, you dumb lowlife, where do you think you get the right to judge me?

Does that make a difference to you?

And what would you know about family life in the 1890? That is only your predjudices talking.

[Animal]

The smilie at the end of that particular sentence was a sign of joy for the current situation, in wich I get to say whatever I want without fear of the likes of you knocking my door.

All you get to do now is say diddly many times.

And you have it backwards if you think I'm the one being judgemental (quite ironic coming from a "judge")

And what the diddly would you know about family life in the 1890? That is only your predjudices talking.

I read about it, from the experience of my ancestors. They had a hell of a hard time breaking free from the likes of you. Thankfully they succeeded,  some as soldiers during the second world war, and others standing tall during the civils right movement. And I am here now able to put smilies at the ends of my sentences, much to your dismay

Back then prejudices didnt talk. They beat the crap out of you and killed you. And thats only in America.

In Europe, it was an oven.

[Holden McGroin]

It amazes me that we continue to have a debate about prayer in school in the USA.

The only thing that the present rule prohibits is some teacher telling my kid how to pray.  Those who administer it have screwed it up repeatedly.  Churches / Synagogs / Temples / Mosques... these are where we learn worship... let the schools teach algebra.

And there is a lot of praying going on when algebra tests are given.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It amazes me that we continue to have a debate about prayer in school in the USA.

The only thing that the present rule prohibits is some teacher telling my kid how to pray.  Those who administer it have screwed it up repeatedly.  Churches / Synagogs / Temples / Mosques... these are where we learn worship... let the schools teach algebra.

And there is a lot of praying going on when algebra tests are given.

Agreed

but to change some motto, pledge, school song - whatever - just because it has had the word "God" in it for how many number of years is ludicrous. Just another attempt by a few in this generation to eliminate ANY reference to a "God" or "Divine" for the future generations. It's not about us today, it is about our grandchildren's children.