P47, P51, P38...the German view......

[Dowding (Work)]

And the murder of re-caputred POWs after the 'Great Escape', Wotan?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Wotan
you are still wrong you need to know how much damage the ones shot down took  not just consider the "miracles" that made it home.

You are wrong.

Look at the pic hazed posted, I can post a bunch more of various planes from hurricane to mossies to spitfire taking 3cm and making it home. But this is hardly representative of how tough the overall ac are. These were just the lucky ones.

Captain(?) you presented bs evidence that was supposed to show the 38 was tough. I replied to you and how wrong you were/are. I didnt bring  up toughness you did.

I said the p38 is a pos.

as for your  numbers as to a2a kills those on unverifiable estimates based on pilot claims and hardly credible.

The lw attacked bombers streams where they were weak. They were ordered for the most to get to the bombers. So even in a situation where 8 poor little p38 super aces find themselves in a situation where they were out numbered. They werent all attacked by the entire force of the lw.

Also as Glasses pointed out there have been allied claims of being out numbered but when you check to see how many fighters the lw had in the area its complete bs.

The lw later formed Gefechtsverband's that consisted of 3 staffels of Sturmbocks (36 or so 190s) and that inluded close escort gruppe of 109s, (a gruppen is 36 a/c and 4 stab = 40)

They also had a gruppen of 109s flying top cover 36 a/c and a stab) 40.

This represents strength on paper they rarely had all their aircraft operational.

The bombers we be strung out along the stream that ran 100 miles and when the lw attacked the bombers the "little friends" would be called to help. Any fighter in the area would converge.

Later the alles would sweep ahead and attack these formations as they formed up. They may have been "outnumbered" but they certainly werent "attacked" it was the other way around.

Heres an ah game example, in last saturdays cap event event my flight of 4 guys stumbled upon 20+ hurricanes forming up  after they took off. In 5 min time I had 5 kills. The other guys in my squad had multiple kills as well. Their may have been more hurris but we werent "outnumbered" we got a bunch of ez kills. Some of the hurris didnt even know they were attacked.

Look at the fighters that jg 26 and jg 2 had in operation and you be hard pressed to find 1 day where they had 100 aircraft in the air.

Pilot stories are just that stories of faded glory. Fish stories that rarely line up with the reality of it. How could 8 p38 pilots flying into a combat area take time to count. BS.

I am somewhat dismayed at the level of vitriol being displayed by the Luftwaffe “Mafia” in this thread. I am disappointed in several of you.

With regard to American escort fighters being out-numbered, you ignore what Virgil has written and twist the argument. It’s as if you’re saying, “my mind is made up, so don’t confuse me with facts.”

From October through December of 1943, three fighter groups made up the entirety of the 8th Air Force’s long-range escort. These consisted of two P-38 groups operating from Kingscliffe and a single group of P-51B fighters borrowed from the 9th Air Force. Now if you look at the AARs, you will discover that the typical number of escorts accompanying the bombers to the target was frequently around 50. That’s right, 50, sometimes less. Typically 30% of the escorts would abort for various reasons (at this point the P-51 was proving no more reliable than the P-38, with typical early operational teething woes). So, a mission may begin with 75 escorts, and reach the target with considerably less than that.

Now here’s the second consideration you ignore: These 50 escorts had to defend up to 400 bombers over an area of up to and often exceeding, 500 square miles. This meant that the escort was usually broken down to squadron level formations, which then assumed station in flights of four above, ahead and on the flanks of various bomber boxes. This means that any group of four fighters may be 10 to 20 miles away from other fighters from the same squadron. Remember, this was during the time of General Eaker, who was dedicated to the tactic of close escort. It wasn’t until Doolittle took over that General Kepner was authorized to let the fighters roam or interdict the Luftwaffe. Shuttle tactics were introduced in February of 1944, which allowed relieved fighter groups to head for the deck and hit the Luftwaffe where they lived.

So, the Luftwaffe manages to get 150 fighters up to meet the bombers. Are they forced to scatter their forces? No, they concentrate their fighters on individual bomber boxes. Therefore, four P-38s were often faced with 40 or more fighters in their immediate area. That’s called local air superiority, and the Luftwaffe had that anytime they wanted it, even well into 1944.

As to American pilots not being able to count the enemy fighters, pure poppycock. I personally know literally dozens of veteran fighter pilots who flew fighters in the ETO. They would laugh at your contention. Furthermore, read the AARs, or at least Carter & Mueller. You will find that reported numbers of enemy fighters by American fighter pilots generally correlates well to the numbers reported in Luftwaffe documents.

Facts are difficult things. Indeed, the facts establish that a mere handful of P-38s and P-51s completely unraveled the Luftwaffe’s anti-bomber planning, significantly increased their losses, while simultaneously greatly reducing bomber losses to German fighters. By early 1944, the die was cast.

My regards,

Widewing

[Wotan]

is it an either or arguement? Malmedy was brought up as an example of collective guilty. Do you think an innocent person should be executed for something he didnt do, just because another of his country men may be guilty of something entirely different?

Anyway from this site

Stalag Luft III, Sagan

The Reprisal
The balloon went up in spectacular style.  A 'Grossfahndung' (national alert) was ordered with troops, police, Gestapo and Landwacht (Home Guard) alerted.  Hitler, incensed, ordered that all those recaptured were to be shot. Goering, Feldmarschall Keitel, Maj-Gen Graevenitz and Maj-Gen Westhoff tried to persuade Hitler to see sense.  Eventually he calmed down and decreed that 'more than half are to be shot and cremated.' This directive was teleprinted to Gestapo headquarters under Himmler's order, and a list of 50 was composed by General Nebe and Dr Hans Merton.

One by one the escapers were recaptured and on Himmler's orders, handed over to the Gestapo.  This was not the normal practice; usually, recaptured PoWs were handed over to, and dealt with, by the civilian police.  Singly, or in small groups, they were taken from civilian or military prisons, driven to remote locations, and shot whilst offered the chance to relieve themselves.  The Gestapo groups submitted almost identical reports that 'the prisoners whilst relieving themselves, bolted for freedom and were shot whilst trying to escape.'' This infamous expression has now passed into history as an euphemism for cold blooded murder.

Three escapers, Per Bergsland (aka Rocky Rockland, because he Anglicised his name as the authorities were unsure how Norwegians serving in the RAF and then becoming PoWs would be treated by the Germans),  (332 Sqdn, shot down Spitfire VB AB269 AH:D, during the Dieppe Landings), Jens Muller (331 Sqdn, shot down 19th June 1942, Spitfire VB AR298 FN:N), and Bram ("Bob") van der Stok (left), succeeded in reaching safety.  Bergsland and Muller reached neutral Sweden, and van der Stock arrived in Gibraltar via Holland, Belgium, France and Spain.  Out of the 73 others, 50 were murdered by the Gestapo, 17 were returned to Sagan, four sent to Sachsenhausen, and two to Colditz Castle.  Word reached England of the atrocity; in mid July 1944 Anthony Eden, British Foreign Minister, made a speech in the House of Commons declaring that the perpetrators of the crime would be brought to justice.

At the camp, von Lindeiner-Wildau, the Kommandant, had surrendered to his superiors and been arrested.  (He escaped execution, and was sentenced to two years' fortress arrest, which he survived.) A new man, Oberst (Colonel) Braune, arrived.  On April 6th 1944 he called G/C Massey to his office.  Under different circumstances, von Lindeiner and Massey, both professional and honourable career officers, would have been friends.  Normally such meetings were as cordial as the peculiar circumstances allowed, and were preceded with a formal handshake.  This time and with a new man in command, there was none.  With a clear reluctance, the new Kommandant announced via the interpreter, S/L 'Wank' Murray, (102 Sqdn, shot down 8/9-Sep-39, Whitley III K8950 DY:M) that he was ordered to inform the Senior British Officer that forty-one escaping officers had been "shot whilst trying to escape." Massey couldn't believe it.  "How many were wounded?" he asked, staggered.  "None, and I am not permitted to give you any further information, except that their bodies and personal effects will be returned to you," was the stilted reply.

Prisoners and Luftwaffe alike were horrified.  Hauptmann Pieber, the adjutant, afterwards said to Murray, "You must not think the Luftwaffe had anything to do with this ...  we do not wish to be associated ...  it is terrible." Later the list of names was posted and contained 47 names; an update a few days later added three more.  The aftermath was a grim time with the Gestapo investigators poking their noses everywhere and prisoners and guards alike were very edgy.  Pieber even told the PoWs to "be very careful, you are in great danger; no more tricks."

Pieber, too, was respected by the PoWs, and habitually congratulated prisoners who were promoted whilst in captivity, usually shaking their hand.  Promotions which had been put into motion before a man was shot down would duly be notified to the Red Cross by the Air Ministry, and then word filtered down through the German High Command.

Simoleit was a professor of History, Geography and Ethnology, spoke several languages including English, Russian, Polish and Czech.   Transferred to Sagan in early 1943, he was deputy Kommandant and ignored the ban on military courtesies to PoWs by providing full honours at the funeral of an RAF airman who was also Jewish.

Von Lindeiner died in 1963, aged 82; in his memoirs he expressed appreciation for the genuine sympathies of G/C Massey and the other Commonwealth officers when his Berlin apartment was destroyed by Allied bombers.


 Later the Luftwaffe quietly allowed the prisoners to build a local memorial (left).  This was designed by Wilton Todd (possibly 169 Sqdn, shot down 15/16-Feb-44, Mosquito II, HJ707 VI:B), and two of the stonemasons who carved the names were Dickie Head (possibly 139 Sqdn, shot down  24/25-Nov-43, Mosquito IV DZ614) and S/L John Hartnell-Beavis (10 Sqdn, shot down 25/26-Jul-1943, Halifax II, JD207 ZA:V, a former architect) and erected in the local cemetery

Urns containing ashes of the Fifty were originally buried there, but after the war were taken to the Old Garrison Cemetery at Poznan.  
 

Both still remain today, but there were very few traces of the camp left when some veterans and survivors visited it all 50 years later.  There is a local museum, of exhibits and items found at the camp.  Paul Tobolski on visiting the memorial, corrected a small error on his father's initials, and liberated one of the tiles from Harry's entrance.  He had never known his father.

An examination of the local road showed a shallow depression running at right angles across it, where 'Harry' runs 30 feet beneath.  Some subsidence since 1944 has caused the depression to occur.

Different then what was accused at malmedy.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I'm going to deliver it for you, go back and read the posts, in order. Go ahead, I dare you. It's all there for everyone to see, but you and your buddies won't see it.

Originally posted by Wotan
Virgil you cant make any claim as to how "tough" a plane is based only on rare examples of a few who made it back heavily damaged.

You have to research the ones that didnt make it back as well. Some of them may have been killed with just 1 7mm.

Wirthout taking account of the losses and how they were lost all you offer is anecdotal evidence that shpws no insight to how "tough" the p38 was.

Above, you find WOTAN, telling me I cannot use isolated incidents to prove a point. And below, you find my reply, where "I" called WOTAN on his claim that isolated incidents don't prove points.

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
So, Wotan, show me a massive number that were shot down with a few hits.


Oh, and by the way, if I can't prove the P-38 was tough with a few examples, then you can't prove the Luftwaffe was superior, and that the P-38 was inferior to the Luftwaffe planes, with a few examples of their success.

See Grunherz? I told you I'd call you out on your ignorance, arrogance, and your complete lack of reading and comprehension skills.

Now, as for claims of Luftwaffe and German holding on moral high ground, I call roadkill.

You mental midgets can run around denying that Malmedy (by the way, if you're going to post about history, at least spell the freaking names of the events correctly), the Holocaust, and other atrocities didn't happen, but it does not make it fact.

Oh, and here's a genuine verified fact for you. The commander of the LUFTWAFFE, that brilliant heroin addicted idiot with delusions of grandeur, Hermann Goerring, follower of one of the most notorious homicidal maniacs in history, Adolf Hitler, ordered the execution of 50 unarmed Allied airmen who were recaptured POWS. Not only that, but the LUFTWAFFE followed those orders, with some help and guidance from the Gestapo and the SS. So much for the line of crap you're peddling about the Germans and the Luftwaffe carefully adhering to the Geneva convention. Not to mention Allied bomber crews, and U.S. bomber crews in particular, being sent from POW camps, to concentration camps.

You little goosesteppers need to learn a real simple fact. If you align yourselves with evil criminals, and you do their bidding, you are guilty of their crimes.

You can lie and deny all you want, Malmedy, Dachau, Buchenwald, Aushwitz, and the murder of POWs from Stalag Luft III all happened. And the Luftwaffe was a willing and able co-conspirator, and guilty of being an accomplice before, during, and after the fact.

The truth is, German blood flows freely through my veins, and I am proud of my German heritage. I can respect some of the pilots, and many of the planes. I know that many of them didn't have first hand direct knowledge of what was happening. But I know they were not all the lilly white guiltless knights of the air you dipsticks porttray them as. The most honorable of them accept the blame for what happened, and they don't glorify the victories, minimize the defeats, and they DO NOT DENY THE ATROCITIES. The difference between them and idiots like you is obvious, and they'd be disgusted and sickened by you. As a grandson of an honorable man who left Germany in the 1890s to come to the U.S., and a person who has deep ties to and feelings for Germany, people who spew the garbage like I've seen here really piss me off. You clowns are just plain full of crap.

[Wotan]

So, Wotan, show me a massive number that were shot down with a few hits.


Oh, and by the way, if I can't prove the P-38 was tough with a few examples, then you can't prove the Luftwaffe was superior, and that the P-38 was inferior to the Luftwaffe planes, with a few examples of their success

I never said the luftwaffe was superior. You are lying. I never said the p38 was inferior to lw planes, again you are lying. I said imho the p38 sux. Some say the 109 sux, others the 190. Its my opinion take it with a grain of salt. But dont lie about what I said.

So, Wotan, show me a massive number that were shot down with a few hits.

Thats the point. both are unprovable unless you exanime everything. Not just the miracles that made it home. If you cant follow that change your bbs handle to "Corporal".
 

am somewhat dismayed at the level of vitriol being displayed by the Luftwaffe “Mafia” in this thread. I am disappointed in several of you.

Most of its just in response to "Captain" Kangaroo's vitrol.

I had made quite a long reply but we have a bad storm here in florida and power went out.

From October through December of 1943, three fighter groups made up the entirety of the 8th Air Force’s long-range escort. These consisted of two P-38 groups operating from Kingscliffe and a single group of P-51B fighters borrowed from the 9th Air Force. Now if you look at the AARs, you will discover that the typical number of escorts accompanying the bombers to the target was frequently around 50. That’s right, 50, sometimes less. Typically 30% of the escorts would abort for various reasons (at this point the P-51 was proving no more reliable than the P-38, with typical early operational teething woes). So, a mission may begin with 75 escorts, and reach the target with considerably less than that.

JG 2 and JG 26 were the only 2 jagdgeschwaders in france and jg 1 was the only jagdgeschwader defending germany.

A jagdgeschwader at this time was made of:

Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
IV. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
Total of 164 a/c

164 x 3 = 492 single eng fighter to cover west europe and germany.

Not all gruppen of a geschwader flew together. Some flew at night etc.....

Bombers streams stretched for 100s of miles and the lw attacked the stream where there was little fighter opposition. Most of the time it was between 60 and 80 fighters divided in sepreate rolls, thos who would attack the bombers, close escort for the bomber attackers and top cover. The allies launched seperate attacks that split the lw up even more.

The bombers would call out for help and any escort near enough would close on their position.  


A small number of aggressive attackers can tie up a larger force. I used the example in ah of my 4 guys tieing up an overwhelming number of hurricanes and destroying a good many. In tod the other night my group of 8 were engage by 20 + hurris and spits we killed 12. We were out numbered but we were agressive and took the initiative. A p38 killing 5 fw190s in 5 min is no evidence of how good the plane is or the pilot. It does show his agressive spirit.

The allies could, due  to their numbers,  out pace the lw in the number of sorties and pilots and planes. The lw on the west front were stretched to the limit. The lw in west took areas of of limited local air superiority just long enough to achieve their mission. It wasnt enough to stem the tide nor could it have been.

In the AH Big Week scenario this was true as well. No matter how many we killed  There was always a few more on the way.

That was what I meant by "gangbanged".

[DeadDuck]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'm going to deliver it for you, go back and read the posts, in order. Go ahead, I dare you. It's all there for everyone to see, but you and your buddies won't see it.
 

You are clearly correct in this debate and are doing a better job of presenting also.  I'd jump in and bury the Luftwhiners (that is the correct term here ,yes?) with more data, but as you say they are twisting things to suit a predetermined opinion.  

Now I am just a lonely AW refugee and not to be taken as seriously as a real AH player, but hey my $.02:)  

DD

[Naudet]

Widewing, i see your point of a max of 50 escorts at a time and if you compare the pure numbers, i agree, along the way the bombers had to go those 50 escorts were outnumbered.

But effectivly they were not.
1st the Luftwaffe barrely managed to bring 150 fighters in at a time, more often single Jagdgruppen of around 25-30 planes attacked, sometimes two, so if a bomber box was attacked it was rarely more than 60 planes.

If this bomber box was than defended by, lets say 12 P38, we can both agree, that from the pure numbers the P38s were outnumbered 5:1.
But than a very important thing has to be taken into account, bombers had absolute priority in 1943. It went so far that there was a standing order to any JG along the way the USAAF bombers had to go to avoid combat with the escorts at all costs, if attacked they were ordered to run and not to counterattack.

So than the 12 P38 effectively face not a single opponent, cause the LW pilots had to attack the buffs or they would face a court martial.

But in the anecdote of a P38 driver talking about that escort mission, he would say something like "I was surounded by enemies, we were atleast outnumbered 4:1 or even worse, but anyway i managed to get one of the LW-planes."

He would not be lying, but from that episode you cannot argue about any strength or weaknesses of the P38.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Naudet
Widewing, i see your point of a max of 50 escorts at a time and if you compare the pure numbers, i agree, along the way the bombers had to go those 50 escorts were outnumbered.

But effectivly they were not.
1st the Luftwaffe barrely managed to bring 150 fighters in at a time, more often single Jagdgruppen of around 25-30 planes attacked, sometimes two, so if a bomber box was attacked it was rarely more than 60 planes.

If this bomber box was than defended by, lets say 12 P38, we can both agree, that from the pure numbers the P38s were outnumbered 5:1.
But than a very important thing has to be taken into account, bombers had absolute priority in 1943. It went so far that there was a standing order to any JG along the way the USAAF bombers had to go to avoid combat with the escorts at all costs, if attacked they were ordered to run and not to counterattack.

So than the 12 P38 effectively face not a single opponent, cause the LW pilots had to attack the buffs or they would face a court martial.

But in the anecdote of a P38 driver talking about that escort mission, he would say something like "I was surounded by enemies, we were atleast outnumbered 4:1 or even worse, but anyway i managed to get one of the LW-planes."

He would not be lying, but from that episode you cannot argue about any strength or weaknesses of the P38.

This notion that Luftwaffe fighters never attacked the escorts flies in the face of the facts. Read the AARs, you will find that the escorts were constantly being bounced by German fighters. Talk to any of the veterans pilots and they will tell you that they spent a great deal of their time defending themselves as well as the bombers. Moreover, 8th AF doctrine of the time forbade the escorts pursuing the Luftwaffe. Standing orders were to stay with the bombers. Outside 8th AF fighter headquarters was a sign that reminded all fighter pilots that their primary mission was to “protect the bombers.” Once Doolittle took command in early January of 1944, that sign was replaced by another, which stated that the new primary mission of the fighters was to “destroy the Luftwaffe.” The day that sign was posted, the air war in the west was, essentially, won.

My regards,

Widewing

[hazed-]

and what the hell has all this got to do with a computer model that is behhaving imo wrongly?

cant you guys take the discussion of air battles to another thread?

I have read books on the air war over Europe and quite honestly you (capt and Wotan) are BOTH correct on different air battles.
On some occasions the escorts were in the correct position and outnumbered the LW and on others they were overwhelmed by superior LW numbers.You are all showing far too much EMOTION in your posts to be taken seriously.

Glassess Im sorry mate but I dont always agree with what you type in here.Concerning attrocities I suggest you read 'second world war' by Martin Gilbert.After reading this and other books on WW2 im not quite of the opinion that all german troops were 'knights of old' in terms of honour.Many accounts of chivalry are there for all to read, like the submarine commander who towed in survivers against orders, The German pilots who allowed flyers in shot up planes to return home and many others but there is also tales of machine gunning survivers and yes stories of both sides shooting pilots in their parachutes.However this is not the place to try and prove or disprove them one way or the other.Its an Aircraft forum.

Its true there were many honourable German soldiers.Many that refused to carry out orders that broke their moral codes but there were also many NON SS soldiers that certainly didnt.My Uncle Harry who was a medic in the paras during WW2 and was at dunkirk and normandy often told me about some of his mates who were killled.He gave me a book called 'the road to dunkirk' which described many of the most barbaric executions that took place.He was very bitter towards Germans and would you believe Americans too as he actually lost his best friend to 'friendly fire' by the Americans.Every time i mentioned America he'd tense up and say ' bloody trigger happy bastards'.And this was 40 years on!
Capt it is GENERALLY accepted that the wehrmacht behaved honourably on the whole as did the Luftwaffe concerning adhering to the rules of war but as with ALL armies there were exceptions.Why are you all trying to cram information (in what ammounts to thousands of books all written with a LOT more understanding of what really went on) into a thread about a F*king computer GAME i'll never know!?!?

TALK ABOUT THE MODEL not the people that flew them please.Thats what the thread was about.Im sick of reading what amounts to half assed recollections of information that should only be quoted from an official source rather than some BS internet site made by some X warbirds flyer.
Ive seen pilot stories online that were clearly made up by amazinhunks who for some reason get a kick out of doing it.They are often interspersed with words and terms that are so modern in context that its clearly not written in the 1940's.

Wotan, Glassess () capt and all the others can we please stick to the thread topic, I do appreciate you were trying to help me prove(disprove in capt case) a point about the models.Thanks but it has now gone too far.Quote from books if you can and give me the IsBN numbers so i can check it if id like to or dont quote at all.obviously some of the things mentioned like P47s stories and the 190 cylinder story have been confirmed in other theads and are easily verifyable and as such are ok but a lot of the stuff we see is unconfirmable and could be made up couldnt it.
Id like to see the thread closed here.No one is going to change positions and its getting a little too personal for my liking.Skuzzy please close it off.

P.s. bug32, bug332, bug what ever , who gives a toss? youre still an Ass. why dont you go sit on that helmet you keep posting pictures of, do us all a favour.

[akak]

Originally posted by Wotan


I said the p38 is a pos.

 

Wow...for a POS plane to have a positive kill ratio over Luftweenie planes must say a lot about the Nazi planes and the Nazi pilots.  So you saying Nazi planes were even a greater POS than the P-38?


ack-ack

[Naudet]

Widewing, the standing order is just for 1943, after facing more numerous escorts fighters the LW changed this standing order cause they noticed it would be suicidal.

The reaction was to deploy LW escort groups for the bomber interceptors.
From than on a LW attack force consisted of 2 Gruppen of escorts and 1 Gruppe of buff attackers. Bringing the total strength of such an attack to 70-90 planes.

And sure than the US escort pilots had a tough time, but when the LW started to field those attack groups the P51B was there and escort plane numbers had increased.

And sure i know of the USAAF doctrine in 1943 to stay close to the buffs, its one of the mistakes the USAAF made in the early days of the daylight offensive.


For 1943 we have on both sides standing orders - too stay with the buffs in the USAAF and to attack only the buffs with the LW - that lead to a somewhat confusing aircombat situation.

The USAAF felt overwhelmed, cause single squadrons had to defend bomber boxes against LW attacks of 30-60 planes.

On the other side LW pilots felt helpless about the escorts cause there orders limited their attacks on the buffs and during the approach on the bombers they were more or less defenseless. What kept them alive was the fact that the escorts were not allowed to leave close escort.

This goes only for the 1943 period, from early 1944 it totaly changed.

What i just wanted to point out is that the 1st two P38 groups were not effectivly facing odds of 4:1 to 20:1.

As my other post should have shown, they actually might have been in the mids of a large LW attack force, but those LW attacks had only one target, and that were the buffs not the few P38 escorts.

[Wotan]

Naudet is correct the lw formed gefechtsverbands (battle formations)

1 gruppen flew top cover, 1 flew close escort The sturmgruppe attacked the bombers.

Full gefechtsverbands would have 116 planes but most were much smaller (between 60 and 80 planes)

The sturmgruppen and the close escorts would be most vulnerable to the escort fighters. The top cover is who first attcked the the escorts. A full gruppen would be 36 a/c and a stab, 40 planes.

As naudet said there may have well been more lw planes at the point they attacked but 20 to 1 odds........????

[AKSWulfe]

Who cares about the LuftWaffe?!?!

They get their flying apparel from the same place this guy shops!

-SW

[GRUNHERZ]

"See Grunherz? I told you I'd call you out on your ignorance, arrogance, and your complete lack of reading and comprehension skills."


So I see all you can throw around are insults and BS.  I dont even sense one bit of humor in it like when most others post the same way. You're pathetic....

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by Wotan


You need to do some reading, The defendants at malmedy had their sentences commuted and when the army investigated the the crime scene after the snow had melted they didnt 150 machine gunned us soldiers who were lined up and shot in the back as the the survivors claimed.

They only found a bit less than 80 bodies so it was OK?

There was a controversy surrounding the botched prosecution, but only in the minds of revisionists and Nazi lovers does this mean that the crime did not take place.