furball island... why not?

[loser]

what? dude, i hope a dingo eats your baby

[Lephturn]

I just want to make two points:

1.  That is NOT the purpose of the TA.  It's their for training, not furballing.

2.  The whole point is to have someplace where you can always find quick A2A action IN THE MA.  The trick here is to try to accomodate different playing styles all in the same arena.  A "furball island" idea, as first put forth by my squadmate eagl (AFAIK), is one way to accomplish that IMHO.

Why is it that fliers like myself who just want A2A action are perfectly happy to have an arena where BOTH strat and furballing are available and encouraged, where as the folks that want strat seem to get upset at the idea that they can't decimate every single field in the arena?  Just what is so wrong with having one small part of the main arena that is set up to encourage a different style of play?  So what if there are three fields that you can't destroy, that are never part of the larger strategic war system in the main arena?  Please explain what is so bad about that idea.  Wouldn't it allow both types of players to participate in the same arena together?  Heck, if you want more organized folks to play the strat game, I think you NEED to have the furballer crowd in the same arena to have a pool of pilots to draw from.

Remember guys, both types of players need each other.  If you ever want enough folks online to make something like a HA feasible, you have to be as inclusive as possible to get the numbers, IMHO.  toejamting all over those of us who like to "furball" just because we don't want to play "your way" will not accomplish anything.  I could make all kinds of derisive comments about folks that like to capture virtual bases, but it won't help the situation.  Instead lets discuss the issues.  

------------------
Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome!

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)

[AKDejaVu]

The need for a "furball island" is what is being questioned.

Why?

Have you ever logged onto the arena and not been able to find a fight within 4 minutes?  Are we really trying to minimize that with a furball island?  I just don't remember EVER seeing a map where there wasn't a furball somewhere.  Time to stop being fricking lazy people.  The key is "esc" and it pulls up a map.  Those large red sector bars mean lots of enemies are there.  pick a base close and go for it.  I guarantee you will find a fight.

Move the bases closer together and you'll have < 5k fites where everyone is diving for ack.  You'll still have one group gang-banging another.  The fights won't be "fair" and people will still whine.  Eventually, people will fly high to get massive alt advantages and pick off the low flying furballers... then those people will be whining.

Any move to make the game more like quake should be discouraged.  You want to furball.. find a group of planes and do it.  The means are already there.

AKDejaVu

[anRky]

lazs wrote:
------------------------------------
JAB... how did that fightertown thing work?  Was it as big a threat to the strat weenies as they fear or was it just a fun place to blow off steam?  
------------------------------------

Well I'm not JAB, but...

Yes, the introduction of fightertown did have a big effect on the strategic situation, but that was mostly because the map that was used was very poorly designed for arena play in the first place.  FT wasn't in the middle of the map; the map itself couldn't even be equally divided among the three sides.  There were other problems, too, the biggest of which was that while FT was uncaptureable, it couldn't be made invulnerable, so people were always 'porking' it.

However, it was quite a success.  FT attracted many of the best pilots, was very a humbling experience, and it was a great place to learn to fight.  Some of my best AW memories (not counting scenarios, of course) are of the old fightertown.

Eventually they moved FT to its own arena, and although it had enough momentum to live on for a little while, it couldn't survive on its own.  People just don't log on to an arena with low numbers.  

anRky
-Ih8ubb

[easymo]

 You have described my favorite H2H arena. Disable all the ground crap, set 88,s at 0.000000(they still hit you, but no damage). Enable fighters at the V bases, disable all the outlying fields. You have a scale that is usable for even 8 player.

[J_A_B]

anRky sums it up pretty well.  FT was as follows:

In AW,  the FT island, aside from the fact that the map itself had problems, did not seriously affect the overall strategic situation.  Since no bombers were available there, nothing launching from the bases could do serious harm to much of anything. It WAS a great deal of fun, especially when the arena had fairly low numbers.  There were no strat targets on the island, and the individual bases were eventually made indestructable (well AW's equivilent of indestructible, which was buildings regenerate in like 30 seconds).  The people who played the strat game could easily ignore this part of the arena--it had NO effect on the "war" as a whole.

Setup was about like this:   The FT island itself was a good distance from the other bases, but not TOO far, and close to centrally located.  There were 3 bases on the island (well it was an atoll, but same idea). These bases were all about 10 miles from each other--in other words, VERY close.  Acks were limited to 5k feet (as with most AW acks), but they regenerated in like 15 seconds so vulching was basically impossible.  No bombers available from these fields, either.  The bases could not be captured, and as noted above eventually became indestructable.

The community accepted this little area, and had its own rules--people who were alt monkeys or excessive runners at the FT atoll were usually yelled at a lot, even by crountrymates, and asked to go to another part of the arena.  This seldom happened except in cases involving newbies, since most everyone knew what FT was for.  Ganging was, less of a problem than elsewhere in the arena, mainly because if you died you could be back up and fighting very quickly.


AH, I feel, could take this a seep further.

In AH I am sure the bases could be modified such that no fighters upping from "FighterTown" could carry bombs or droptanks.  The bases shouldn't have the 88's as they tend to ruin dogfights, but need the 40mm's to prevent vulching.  Osties and tanks should be dis-allowed, but M-16's might be useful (they're more vulnerable to flak and strafing).  


I still think it would work well in AH, and would be a great improvement to the game for a lot of people.  I am not the "furballer" myself, but it DOES provide a great relief from the "war" now and then.   Dedicated furballers would doubtlessly LOVE such an island.  And, since it wouldn't harm the "strat" aspect of the game, there is no harm in it.

It's a good idea.  Maybe someone needs to make a map with the terrain editor (which is itself a wonderful feature).


J_A_B

[Tac]

Or make middle island have NO ack, buildings be indestructible, middle island bases not count in the "victory" when reset comes, anyone launching from any field in middle island will get NO perks for ANY kills.  Any fighter that took off from middle island will not give perks when dead either.

Do that, and you can get all the furballers in one spot and not hurt the efforts of the strat players.

[Lephturn]

Sounds good Tac.  

AKDejaVu said:
 

The need for a "furball island" is what is being questioned.
Why?

Have you ever logged onto the arena and not been able to find a fight within 4 minutes?

YES!  At least a handful of times in the last few weeks, and I play when the eastern US does, so the arena has plenty of folks in it.  The need for furball island, IMHO, comes from several factors.

1.  Low #'s of players in off peak times.  When there are only a few online, it can be tough to find a fight, especially if one groups is busily bombing things.

2.  Strat players close the fields close to the fight, or at least take down the FH's so fighters can't launch.  Players can't launch from the fields that are close to the fight, because the FH is down or the fuel is down.  You can't get a "quick fight" because it takes you 15 minutes to get to it in the first place.  Then when you get there, you find the strat guys on your team have closed the FH on at the other field, and your opposition dries up.

3.  One side is being totally overwhelmed for whatever reason, preventing A2A players from launching with gas and enough time to get any alt.

4.  Strat players have nuked radar so somebody logging in for a quick flight can't find a fight.  I've seen radar totally down for over an hour and spent a lot of time flying around uselessly.  Take away the dot radar if you want, but if it's all gone I have no idea where to find a fight.

The bottom line is that the situations above restricts the player's choices and prompts some players to log off.  Regardless of what your opinion is on that fact, it's still a fact, and it's a BAD THING for the game overall IMHO.  Many folks just don't have the time to spend an hour or more flying AH at a session, I know I often don't.  There are days I have a 1/2 an hour to spend before dinner where I log into AH for some quick action, and sometimes they go like this:  "Hmmm, get into the arena and radar is down.  Mass confusion on the radio and nobody seems to know where the fight is.  Finally I gather a forward field is hot, so I check it out.  Nope, FH is down.  Ok, move one field over, it's a ways off but I should have time for a fight or two.  Nope, no gas.  Log out."

Now often I'll try anyway, but I sometimes just end up flying around for a while looking for action.  It would be really nice if there was one place on the map where I knew I would be very likely find a fight, and I knew I could ALWAYS grab my favourite plane and have a go.  I don't want a fair fight, I don't want "equality" or anything so silly, I just want freedom from the strat system.  When I am time limited or I just feel like it, I want to be able to furball or A2A fight how I choose without searching around for a field near the action that has gas and a working FH.

Now, that's why I think we need it.  Is there any reason why it would hurt the strat system if "furball island" existed?

------------------
Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome!

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)

[AKDejaVu]

what you guys want is head to head play.  Up to 8 can play... and you can do it anyway you want.

And Lephturn.. you want to completely restructure the arena and the environment of the game because of the "handful" of times you couldn't find an instant fight?

I fail to see how a furball island is going to help you find fights in off hours.  You are assuming that those that don't want to be found are going to be hanging out where you want them to be.  Of course... if that were the case, you wouldn't need the island anyways because they'd already all be together flying between two bases.

A furball island does not offer anything that isn't already in the game.  Zero.

There will still be ack diving.  There will still be vulching.  People will still gang up on others.  People will still play alt-monkey runstang g-10 games.  People will still HO.  People will still fly N1Ks and F4u-1Cs.  Furball island fixes absolutely none of it.  It simply provides another barrier in the arena.. and completely new feul for incessant whining on the BBS.

AKDejaVu

[Jekyll]

 

Originally posted by lazs:
LOL.. hear a lot of fear but no real reasons not to have it..  It would have no impact at all on the strat guys or the perk jerks.

I think it would be a lot of fun for a lot of people and add some choice back to the arena.  
So what's the problem with it?   it will have no affect whether people use it or not.  unless you are afraid that people might use it too much???  there's that "f" word again that the Amish hate so much.

Funked...yep your right

jekl... sure, perk jerks would be welcome but I doubt they would be all that happy flying several sectors simply to put their hard "earned" perkie mobile in harms way in a crowd.  wouldn't they be better off continueing to look for loners or hiding from each other?
lazs

Why is it lazs that you are not content merely to disagree with anyone who does not choose to fly YOUR way or YOUR aircraft?  Why is it that you feel this need to denigrate those who want something different from Aces High.

We've had 'phony realists'
We've had 'the amish'
Now we've got 'perk jerks'
Together with a whole host of other phrases which roll effortlessly from your tongue like pure toejam!

Please lazs.  Find a game (and a BBS) you like and stay there.  Only just let me know what game and BBS its gonna be.

Pyro, can we please have a 'squelch poster' option?

------------------
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[Lephturn]

AKDejaVu said:
   

And Lephturn.. you want to completely restructure the arena and the environment of the game because of the "handful" of times you couldn't find an instant fight?

No.  I was replying to your question about whether I had ever had trouble finding a fight.  I gave four other reasons why I felt something like furball island was needed.  The bottom line is, it's needed to stop folks from logging off, or not logging in at all in some situations.

Yes, furball island DOES offer something that isn't already in the game.  It offers me a place where I can ALWAYS launch my Jug with 100% fuel.  No matter what else is happening in the arena, I know I can go to that field, launch in my favourite ride, and have it full of gas.  Not only that, but I think it offers a higher propability that I could find a quick fight if I wanted to.

Also, this isn't a "complete restructure" of the arena.  It's a limit placed on one small part of the arena.  That's it.  Nothing more than that.  Simply three fields in one small area that you can't destroy.  No other changes required.

AKDejaVu also said:
   

There will still be ack diving. There will still be vulching. People will still gang up on others. People will still play alt-monkey runstang g-10 games. People will still HO. People will still fly N1Ks and F4u-1Cs. Furball island fixes absolutely none of it. It simply provides another barrier in the arena.. and completely new feul for incessant whining on the BBS.

Where did this come from?  Of course it won't change any of that, that's the point!  I don't expect or even WANT this minor change to affect any of those things.  Heck, all that above stuff you mention is the essence of an online flight sim!  I don't know what you want to "fix", but most of the things you mention aren't things that are broken IMHO, their just the nature of the beast.  And nothing will stop the whining... ever.      All of those things are what YOU think are problems with the arena, but it's not fair criticize this proposal based on the fact that it doesn't solve your pet peaves.  I laid out what I think the issues were up there in four points, and I think furball island would help in all of those situations.

Explain to me how it's a "barrier" in the arena?  More of a barrier than an arena where everybody is at the mercy of the strat system?  A barrier to what?

I would still like to hear why this would be a bad thing for the arena.  Lets ignore the question of whether it's needed or not for now, and assume furball island was actually implemented.  What do you think the effect would be?  I'm talking about the small island in the center of the map as normal, but with no high alt flak, and the rest of the bases as normal.  The only difference is that everything at these three bases are indestructable.  The rest of the arena is as normal.

------------------
Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome!

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)


[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-18-2001).]

[easymo]

 If they interduced laz ,s idea to the main, they would get my 30 bucks for what its worth.

[Jekyll]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
Just what is so wrong with having one small part of the main arena that is set up to encourage a different style of play?  

I agree with Lephturn here.  I for one am looking forward to an island in the MA where there are friendly icons only, or no range data on enemies within 2000 yds.

How about a section of the arena where every aircraft carries Hispanos, or Mg151/20s irrespective of their nationality?  

Or another section where its only ground vehicles, or only buffs or.. or.. or ..

Oh, you mean its only OK if it encourages YOUR style of play?  

Thought so!



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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[eagl]

Dejavu,

I'm not sure what you're afraid of.  The only mod to the current arena would be to slightly increase hardness of the 3 central airfields (through building hardness or increased amount of light AAA) and remove the vehicle fields and spawn points.

Why does this threaten you and the way you play?  In essence, the arguments against these mods are something like this:

That would encourage furballing (well, duh)
You can already find furballs if you only look hard enough.
You should take your air combat to another arena.
If you just want to dogfight, "trust me" you'll be happier playing it H2H.

I'm sorry my friend, but you're basically saying that the difficulties I've had in AH finding good MASSIVE air battles is entirely one big halucination.  You're saying that if I want air combat, I should be satisfied with 4v4?  That's a crock.  I look for big aircraft-only battles when online, and when I don't find them, I tend to log out.  Why can't you accept the fact that I and others think this way instead of calling us a bunch of mental cases?

Seriously, it gets old when people try to tell me "you're having fun, trust me, and if you're not having fun, it's your own damn fault so go away".  I don't want to take ANYTHING away from anyone elses game as you seem to want to do, I and others are advocating a minor change that would appeal to a portion of the AH community without affecting the rest at all.  

Suggesting that furballers should be satisfied with 8 player H2H is an insult.  If I wanted to play 4v4, I'd use a different game (I won't say which one) for various reasons.  But that isn't enough, and hasn't been good enough since early CK beta.  

Imagine how pissed you'd be if I was asking HTC to remove bomber hangars from all fields except major airfields, or if I asked Pyro to stop producing new planes.  Those things are important to how YOU play the game, so I won't insult you by trying to point out how you'll be happier if we made those "obviously" horrible changes.

So if any of you have an honest reason why making a few mods to furball island would destroy your fun in the arena, let us all know.  I'm dying to hear what would be so bad about letting furballers have their big furball.  Otherwise keep your preaching to another thread please.  If you can't stand what goes on in and around furballs, there's an entire arena to play in so you don't have to stop out other people's fun.

Heh, I'm done preaching myself.  Flame away, I'm honestly curious to see if anyone has a real case against a furball island.

edit:  The details of the changes will be, always have been, up to HTC staff, so arguing about the exact changes is pointless.  What Leph and I are a bit peeved about is the fact that even though there doesn't seem to be any honest argument against changes of the nature we suggest, there is still a vocal protest anytime it's brought up.  If you don't want to furball, fine, state your opinion.  If you don't think furballing has any place in the arena, fine, state your opinion.  Just don't try to justify your opinion by telling me that my own opinion is worthless and based on the fact that I'm imagining things.  That's rude and we can get along better than that I think.

------------------
eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!

[This message has been edited by eagl (edited 02-18-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

A seperate arena within the arena is a bad idea.

A quake arena inside of the main arena is a bad idea.

You say the furball island will offer people a choice when things aren't working out for them.  A choice when they'd just log off anyways.  I'm sure that when a country gets cornered and is down to their one island, people won't say... "Well, its furball island for me until the reset" and just leave those that want to fight the battle to be crushed.  And, I'm also sure that these abandoned soles will not feel the need to log off themselves.  Nah.. that would never happen.

At least that country would be kicking some serious bellybutton on furball island.  Hell.. the other two are fighting the war, but these guys are ready to take on the few that aren't.  They could totally dominnate that one little area while their country is demolished.  It would be awesome.  They could load their aircraft with 100% fuel (because that is ideal for dogfighting) and head 2 minutes to that fight with an enemy plane that most likely only loaded 50% fuel.  BUT HELL... AT LEAST THEY CAN LOAD HOWEVER DAMN MUCH FUEL THEY WANT!

Yeah.. these are all just great justifications.  "You don't have to tell us to fight the war.. and to prove it.. we want an area that your silly little war can't affect.  We'll call it fantasy island."  Of course, it will just be another silly little war inside of the silly little war.. but that's a moot point... right?

Go play H2H or furball in the TA on a nice remote island.  Its already an option.  I just wonder why more people don't do it?  Oh yeah.. that's because they'd RATHER BE PLAYIN IN THE CURRENT MA.

AKDejaVu