Author Topic: furball island... why not?  (Read 7036 times)

Offline J_A_B

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2001, 11:38:00 AM »
(scolding mode on)

I am noticing that certain people seem obsessed with QUAKE:

To which I ask--have you ever actually played a FPS game?   Sure doesn't seem like it by your collective attitudes.  Several of you show a total lack of respect for something you don't appear to understand in the slightest.

If you think Quake, or Unreal Tournament, or CounterStrike is "easy" or "stupid", you're sadly mistaken.   You'd get your bellybutton whipped in 5 seconds in those games.  If you think it takes no teamwork or planning to win a CTF match, then you've never played one.  IMO  CounterStrike or even UT typically involves MUCH MUCH MORE teamwork then is EVER present in AH.  And I'm serious.  Just try CS, and try to take out a half dozen terrorists with no backup...you WILL be killed very fast.  Unlike in AH, you CAN'T run away or get an "alt advantage" to stack the cards in your favor.

And, their community isn't "dumb" because they have some "kewl d00dz" in it--that's just the norm of their community, much as terms like augering and furballing are norms of ours.  Believe me, a lot of THEM think us flight sim people are a bunch of "stuck up jerks"--and with the attitude some of you display, I can see why.

The FPS communities are about as mature as THIS one (which really isn't very mature...ALL online communities are filled with behavior which would be unnacceptable in "real life").

Lastly, you shouldn't be afraid of "Air Quake".  If you ARE afraid of this concept, then you should leave AH RIGHT NOW, because that is what we have.   No penalty for dying, no forced teamwork, everyone has access to the same equipment, team-based, etc.  Aces High is, essentially, a flying QUAKE with WW2-era airplanes.


I don't really give a crap whether AH ever has a "FighterTown" island or not.  I DO think it is a good idea that would add to the game for people who like dogfighting--not upping from porked bases to try to fight people who only want to grab land, at any cost (meaning rampant ganging, vulching, base porking, etc).  It WOULD NOT detract from the game experience of those who LIKE the "war", as past experiences show.  Why are you people so rabidly opposed to something that WOULD NOT have any affect on you?  Are you afraid someone doesn't play the game for the same reasons you do?  Afraid you'll have less people to vulch?  

FT is a good idea, which is why I support it--even though I'd hardly ever fly there (I AM a "strat dweeb" in that I like to fight over contested targets--but I also know not everyone does).

But what gets under my skin is when certain people make derogatory comments about the ENTIRE COMMUNITY of a type of game they CLEARLY don't understand.  I find it ironic, because AH already is (and always was) the type of game they claim to not want.  I find it equally annoying that these SAME people have utterly no respect for anyone who doesn't want to play the game how THEY want it to be played.

Try out other games; get other people's perspective; be more open-minded.  It won't hurt you.

(scolding mode off)


Sorry for subjecting EVERYONE to this longish post which is mostly OT.

I just can't stand the attitude of a vocal few.


Finally, as noted before--someone should MAKE a terain in the edito which would better support what was proposed.

J_A_B



Offline Lephturn

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2001, 11:45:00 AM »
Sling,

The point is, when your country is getting slammed, has no radar, and forward fields are missing either fuel or the FH's are down, what do you do?  Many folks just log out.  The reason to make a few fields "indestructible" is so that there will always be a place to take off from near a fight.  The additional benefit would be that there would always be one pretty small area where there was one field from each country in close proximity.  This leads to great furball action, just the place for those with limited time to find a quick fight.

What will stop folks from loading up with full fuel and travelling anywhere on the map?  Nothing but the time it would take to get across the map.  That's kind of the point.  Right now if a country is down to just a few bases and a reset is imminent what is the situation?  The strat system allows the other countries to severely limit my ability to fly a plane in that situation.  The result is that people just log out.  With three fields in the middle, hopefully quite far from "the mainland", I don't think folks would log out.  Many would just go furball on the island for a while until the FH's and fuel come back, or until the reset happens.  Some would do whatever to defend their remaining fields and such... more power too them.  However, the result of a sheltered furball island is that, IMHO, people wouldn't be as likely to log out.  In addition, as long as the distance was great enough, the furball island would not likely ever be a factor in the final minutes before a reset.

Ideally, I'd like to see one side be able to work the strat system and win the war, but without doing it by encouraging most of the other side to log out.  As I see it now, most resets are achieved simply because people will log out when they are getting beaten down and are limited by fuel and hangar closures.  I think if there was a refuge like furball island available, the Strat game could still be played and the war won, but without causing most of the losing side to log out in the process.  In addition, because there would be more of the losing side staying online, there would be a much greater likelihood that that side would organize some kind of defense, and really put up a fight.  IMHO.

Maybe "furball island" is the wrong term.  How about "Haven" or "shelter island"?

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Offline Jekyll

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2001, 03:52:00 PM »
 
Quote
I find it equally annoying that these SAME people have utterly no respect for anyone who doesn't want to play the game how THEY want it to be played.

You listening lazs?

Offline AKDejaVu

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2001, 04:05:00 PM »
 
Quote
Furball island does not seek to "force" people to furball. It only offers a fair (for everyone) choice.

And what is fair about it?  Or.. let me rephrase that... what is more fair about it?

What does fair have to do with this island in any way shape or form?

AKDejaVu

Offline Lephturn

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2001, 04:35:00 PM »
Although I think "fair" is the wrong term (Never give a sucker an even break I say!  ) here is my take:

The players that like to play the strat game can remove the option for others to play their way, or at least make it much more difficult.  Those focussed on air to air combat don't limit the abilities of the strat players at all.  A haven such as proposed would allow the strat system to work as normal, while making it impossible for the strat system to completely limit those players who just want to do some A2A fighting.

I guess you could call that more "fair", if by fair you mean that the options exist for both types of player to play how they choose at any and all times.  As it is, that's simply not the case.  A bunch of strat players on a rampage can make it much more difficult to simply do some A2A combat, enough so that many just log out.

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Offline AKDejaVu

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2001, 04:46:00 PM »
Lephturn, a bunch of people on furball island will have the same effect.

If one side has ten people there and another has two.. how much fun is it going to be for the two?  If one side is flying nothing but N1Ks, are we going to hear tons of whines here about it the next day... followed by the "so I just logged off, and I'm not coming back until its fixed, or tomorrow.. wichever comes first!"

If something like this is implimented with the sole purpose of furballing, it will be followed by endless threads on how to make it more fair for everyone.  Eliminating CHogs and N1Ks will be the first step.  Moving on to alt monkey runstangs, spitdweebs, LW dweebs, ack diving, vulching, HOing and so forth.  Eventually it will have to be nothing but C.202's there with an invisible nose shield to make everything fair and eliminate the incessant whining.

AKDejaVu

Offline Kieren

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2001, 05:07:00 PM »
AK-

In any furball situation I have been in I, and others I have noted, have been willing to switch sides to even things up. A true furballer is in it for the fight, not the victory, or points, or anything other than the sheer fun of killing things. You also don't typically hear the same level of whining as you do in the average arena, because there are no illusions about why people are there.    

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 02-19-2001).]

Offline AKDejaVu

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2001, 05:12:00 PM »
Kieren.. this is the in MA... side switching can only occur once every 12 hours.

AKDejaVu

AKSeaWulfe

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »
After arguing this before with Lephturn and I agreed to give some ideas well I have come to the conclusion that if it happens it's not going to be good either way.

One side is down to 2 fields, they just fly on furball island, force an easy reset. Or how about this one: only 40 ppl online, all but 3 guys are flying there. Those 3 guys are on the same side. So when everyone logs in around peak hours, one side has 90% of the fields, leaving the other two countries to 3 or 4 a piece.

Furballs can be found everywhere. There is no current justification for a "FighterTown" or a "Furball Island" other than "Why should I have to fly 10 minutes to find a fight when I can fly 3 minutes?"

If that's your justification, and the majority of AH players vote "yes" to this you mine as well just create ONLY a central island with 3 fields on it. That's all you're going to need in the end, it's no fun fighting a war looking for a fight when only 10 or 15 guys from all 3 countries are flying on the map. The rest will be concentrated on that small central island.

I'm not saying "fly my way", but what I am saying is that furballs are all over. Aren't hard to find at all, if they are for you then you just aren't looking at all.
-SW

Offline Kieren

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2001, 05:59:00 PM »
Oops, forgot about that 12 hour reset!  

FWIW, I haven't had a hard time finding fights very often. There have however been times (about once a week) where the time I am on is greeted with the side I am on being down to 3 fields, all capped heavily or with dead hangars. That means switch sides, log out or get vultched mercilessly. This is no big deal unless the vultching side has no interest in ending the war, using the situation to endlessly bombard resources and rack up points on the vultches- the definite downside to perk points. Losing side can be a target, in which case the situation never changes, log out or wait in the tower (big fun), or switch sides and have the people yell at you. All wonderful options! This is my one and only complaint about strat players.

Offline J_A_B

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2001, 07:27:00 PM »
IF most people would end up flying on that "FT" island, as you suspect, then it can safely be assumed that such an island is desired by a majority of the population.

However, I do not think that would be the case.   In AW, it almost never disrupted gameplay and, once people got used to its being there, was accepted and liked by almost everyone--even those of us who didn't fly there.

I still think someone who really wants this should make an arena map with this featue built-in.   The terrrain editor is available--use it.

J_A_B

Offline eagl

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2001, 09:22:00 PM »
J_A_B,

The island is already in the current arena, it just needs a little mod work done by HTC.  Beef up the fields and ditch the vehicles, and presto instant fighter town.

Disabling bombers would be nice too, but not necessary IMHO.  The terrain is already neat there too, but it's sorta aimed at vehicle fighting I think and the volcano isn't placed right for 'cano fights.  These last 2 things are just details, icing on the cake as it were.

The hard part of course would be re-creating the current island as it is to make sure that people who like the cool vehicle battles present on that island can still have THEIR custom playing field.  The ostwind just makes furballs incompatible with vehicle battles, thats all.  

I don't want to take anything away from the ostwind drivers either, except for their ability to interfere with pure Air to Air combat in one little part of the arena.  It's like bringing a baseball bat to a soccer match.  Everyone's happy kicking the ball around until someone who can't play soccer shows up and starts swinging his bat at people.  Next thing you know, the soccer game is over and everyone's pissed.  Except for the guy with the bat of course, 'cause he "won" by disrupting a perfectly good soccer match.  It's easy to fix this, all it needs is a few minor terrain alterations.  I hope HTC agrees AND has the time to do something about it, but I'm not holding my breath.  They've got plenty on their plate already.



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AKSeaWulfe

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2001, 09:57:00 PM »
How can you say it's desired by the majority J_A_B? Just because the majority is on it or is it because that's where the huge radar bars are?

It's a well known fact people follow people. You can't very well have a fight if there's no one to fight can you?

Therefore, when the war starts going south for a single country, most of that country might just go to that furball island to escape getting shot down and to allow the reset to occur. I mean why bother defending a field when you can just hop somewhere else that can never be destroyed and dogfight?

So, war or strat isn't your thing. You just want to furball. That's fine, you can find furballs all over the MA. I never have a problem finding them. The fact of the matter is, it's laziness. No one wants to fly 10 or 15 minutes to find the furball, they just want to take off from an undestructable field and get right into the fight.

Hey, I know where you can do that without HTC modifying or taking anything away from the MA... H2H.

You create a furball island, it's not a simple matter of the majority wants it. The majority is going to go where the majority can find some human competition.

War goes south for one side, they hop to furball island and a chain of events sets in.

Using AW as a setting stone won't work because who knows that the people in AH are anything like the people in AW?

-SW

Offline J_A_B

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2001, 11:41:00 PM »
I am guessing that the people in AW and the people in AH will act the same because a great many of these people ARE the same--literally.  AH is, for the most part, made of of ex AW'ers and ex WB'ers....

Moving on....

You are afraid that your favorite aspect of the game--the strat--might be damaged by the presence of a "FighterTown" island.  That is a valid concern, which I will attempt to address here.   Several other people also don't appear to understand WHY some people want a "FT" island, which I will also attempt to address.


Currently, those who care about strat try to defend their country, even if it means getting vulched or ganged or whatnot....they are dedicated to the betterment of their country.  Trying to take the last couple of fields from a handful of dedicated defenders can be one of the toughest parts of the game.

However, most of the "furballer" types already don't participate in these vulchfests if they're on the losing side.  Instead, they defect or simply log off.  (That, or get PO'ed at not having a decent base to fly from and start yelling on CH 1.) This is why I say a "FT" wouldn't damage the strat--those who hate strat already don't take part in it if they can at all avoid it.

You also mentioned that people go where people are.  Most the time, when there's 100+ people in the arena, this won't be an issue, because there's plenty of action to go around.  Sometimes, when there's maybe 20 people online, this MIGHT be a minor issue...so let's take a closer look.

If there's hardly anyone on, basically the arena is mostly empty.  Usually the few people on will do one of two things:   1), milkrun for points/base capture, or 2), find the closest enemy and try to find some fights.    A FT island wouldn't change that--those who want to capture land will still do so, and those interested in stopping them will still do so, too.   Those who only want to fight A2A, and don't give a damn about land, will have a much easier time doing just that--not end up stuck flying around 20 minutes for nothing because the enemies went somewhere else before he got there. So Everybody wins.


Moving on to the WHY....

A good point that can be made, is that the only difference between AH and, say , MS flight simulator, is that AH has combat in it.  A lot of people--the "furballers"--play for the combat, NOT to spend 3/4 of their online time essentially playing a civilian flightsim, with a few battles in-between, while trying to "win a war".  

They feel AH is about flying and fighting, NOT world domination.  Most furballers, if interested in land capture, will play a dedicated wargame...when they're on AH they just want to have great A2A combat (and AH is definately one the best sims for A2A combat)  They don't want "AOE with planes", and don't see the need to wait 20 minutes for a 1 minute fight.

They aren't asking for much....just a few un-damageable and uncapturable bases placed close together, to foster a greater amount of A2A fighting per hour spent online.  Nobody wants stupid features, like mid-air respawning or unlimited ammo....just less "dead time" between fights, and no proked base to worry about.  It isn't the "strat" aspect that turns off most "furballers"....rather, it's the 20 minute wait between fights.   OR, the lack of non-porked and non-CAPped bases to fly from if your country is being beat.  "FT" would solve BOTH those problems for those whom love A2A combat above all else.

It would have precisely ZERO negative impact on everyone in the arena (except for the dedicated vulchers  hehehehe)

I hope this helps.


I find it ironic how I am becomming the most vocal advocate of having a FighterTown, and I wouldn't even fly there much (I also prefer the strat aspect).  I just know from my own past experience, that it's a good idea with no drawback, if done properly.

Give it some thought.

J_A_B


petrel

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furball island... why not?
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
How about marking the 6 'hotspots' of fighter activity - knights have a bish and rook hotspot marked, bish have a knight and rook hotspot marked.... etc.
Nothing changes but the map display that way, also its pretty much info that would be available in real life anyway... just maybe that no-one is saying so on the radio or using sector comms.
Just two of the sector squares red/purple boxed would do.

Leave the bombers out of the equation though so the sneaky strats dont get messed up.

There is a need for it to learn to fight these planes if you've never really been into such 'realism' and with so many planes available.  Its damn hard to find out when your wings fall off after every 15 minute flight to a visual on an enemy... blam, start again.

£0.02p, and i love Quake too.
Have a smilie...